Your Approach to Drum Programming?

[toolsound]

I'm just wondering what approach you guys take when programming drums. I'm not a drummer, so all of my knowledge comes from listening to music and paying attention to what real drummers do.

Normally, I record my guitar/bass tracks to a click. Then I open up Nuendo's drum editor and go to town. I usually start by replacing the click track with a hi-hat or ride. Then I come up with a basic beat using the bass drum and snare.

I'm really ignorant when it comes to drum fills, the use of crashes, and just spicing up drum beats in general. As a result, my programming tends to sound pretty dull and monotonous.

So anyways, what's your insight on programming?

 

[Rayvegg]

I am a drummer, so this might be an annoyance, but if you dont understand anything let me know...

If you like a fill, steal one. Download a Guitar Pro/Powertab file, and copy the MIDI into something like Drumkit From Hell. Most VST drum modules should allow that.

I also use Guitar Pro to program my drums. It's taken a fair few years of using the program, but now I'm so used to the numbers system it uses that I'd never look back.

So a flow chart of my programming would be -

Write/Find a beat or fill -> Export to MIDI -> Import MIDI to DAW -> route the MIDI through a VST or RTAS Drum Module.

If you need any more explanation, I'll be happy to help

 

[7 Strings of Hate]

first i cry, because i know nothing about drums. then i fret because.....i know nothing about drums. then i listen to songs and bands i like to get an outline for the part i need. Then i cry and fret while i try to make something similar but taylored to my song.

 

[toolsound]

@Rayvegg: That is actually a great idea that I hadn't thought of before. Thanks!

Have you ever used Nuendo's drum editor? I'm just wondering how it compares to using Guitar Pro.

 

[Rayvegg]

I cant say I have, but I can try it out and do a comparison for you?

Also, from taking a beat, you can see the piano roll or notation, and see what makes a good beat, and start first tweaking other peoples, then writing your own

@7 Strings Of Hate -

You should start by stealing some beats and writing riffs over them.

Then, once you have the hang of using the MIDI, start moving hits around in the piano roll. I wont lie, its taken me years to be anywhere near helpful/good, but its so worth it when you start writing beats to riffs youve written \m/

 

[mnemonic]

for the longest time i would never use the toms because when i did it ended up sounding stupid, but i think i'm getting better cos my tom rolls dont usually sound too bad anymore.

usually when i program drums i start with the kick and snare, make the kick kinda follow the guitar to an extent, usually have snare hits on the beat, but sometimes move them around. then i put in cymbals, and then after that decide if i want to change the cymbal pattern, add more crashes, etc. oh yeah, and i start off recording all the guitars first to a metronome.

 

[Konfyouzd]

i'm so glad someone made this thread. i'll be lurking in here.

Ravegg: AWESOME idea. i have no idea why the hell i never thought of that.

 

[synrgy]

Presuming we're only discussing programming drums for rock/metal-ish stuff (IE *not* electronic music, which is a completely different ball of wax for me):

1. I like syncopation. That's just a stylistic thing, but the stuff I've always enjoyed the sound of usually has a kick drum that's doing exactly what a palm muted guitar riff is doing. Stuff like that is what I aim for most of the time.

2. I hear it in my head before I sequence it most of the time, which makes the whole thing a walk in the park. When that isn't the case, I noodle around with a shit ton of various midi breaks until I find something that's closer to what I'm looking for, then tweak as necessary.

3. I try to not program things that would be impossible to actually play. *Some* knowledge of drumming is required for this. Not a ton, but you take into account that at any given time there should only be 4 things happening simultaneously at most -- 2 hands and 2 feet.

4. I try to mix the drums from the perspective of the audience rather than the perspective of the drummer, in terms of panning individual kit pieces.

5. Remind myself that if I use a pre-programmed midi break and don't make any changes to it (like say, from DFH), I'm guaranteeing that somebody else already has a recording with my drums on it.

 

[TonalArchitect]

Just like any other aspect of music, if you want something interesting it must be either A.) inspired or B.) dumb luck. The first, though sporatic, is likely to be more common. So don't expect to wake up with no inspiration and program an interesting drum part. You can't force this stuff.

I agree that *unless you have a very good reason (e.g. inspired) not to* stay within human boundaries, if nothing else than with the only 4 things at a time thing. Though really it's good to learn some stuff about drumming or at least what instruments are played with feet and what aren't (although on some kits they'll have all kinds of weird stuff with a pedal attached) My meaning: don't hit three toms and a snare simultaneously and think it's humanly possible.

As with other things, it's often best to know the "rules" (conventions) before breaking them, so listen to what you're favorite drummers are doing, and attempt to make a rough transcription. Doesn't have to be too precise, and besides, most drum instruments are really recognizable, so as long as it's kind of close, you're golden. About the only things you'll have too much trouble with in a decently produced recording are (perhaps) the toms and rhythmic tomfoolery Not so much in the Meshuggah way, but more like what some funk band(s) did (still do). Like having the snare on the last 16th note of the 2nd and 4th beats instead of directly on the beat. As another example on Slint's Spiderland, I think on one of the songs the drummer hits the snare on the fifth eighth note in 4/4. It helps to keep your eyes open for this stuff.

This helps get a feel for drumming, which, I feel, is a useful tool even if you don't want anything resembling normal drumming.

 

[synrgy]

Also, listen to Abe Cunningham.

(No seriously, I get ideas for a lot of the stuff I've done from some of his breaks/fills)

 

[Rayvegg]

Yeahh guys, there's some things I didnt mention that other guys have said. This thread owns.

In summary -

Copy some other fills/beats to begin with.

The MIDI editing Matrix is your friend. Get to grips with it. Caress it. Sing it to sleep. All in all, get used to spending a lot of programming time within that editor.

Look at where beats are placed. In 4/4, for an example of the "placement", rock beats have Hats on all four beats, Kick on the first and Snare on the third. When you understand the ideology behind placement, you can start being more original and creating other beats... Rather than stealing them

When writing your own things, remember to :-

Make it realistic (physically possible to play)

Take influence (Writing a Meshuggah style song? write a Meshuggah style beat)

And have fun!

P.s. when your friend bring his Ibanez Universe round, don't let him record an idea. You'll be stuck programming his 9/4 beats for days...






@ Synrgy : Most studios (In fact every one I've been to or worked at) will pan and mix drums from the perspective of the drummer. It psychologically makes the listener feel more central within the music.

Don't ask me why, because I'll be honest, I think your way makes more sense, but to make your mixes sound a little more rooted, you may want to try and invert your panning.

Unless it's a stylistic touch you're going for, something out of the norm.

In either case, I'd love to hear how that sounds man.

 

[Stephen]

Guess I'm lucky as i am a drummer as well.

But here is a tip though which some people seem to ignore when they program drums. You only have 2 arms and 2 legs... Sometimes i hear things which are quite impossible to play like hearing 2 cymbals being hit and the snare

If you use pro tools to program you can make use of the quantize and velocity options. I usually set them to random so it makes it more human like, can do that in other programs probably

 

[Daemoniac]

My approach: If it sounds good, use it.

The type of music i make really doesn't need to be reproduced traditionally on stage anyway, so that helps. So far as sounds go, just know what sound and/or style you want for every song. It can take a while to get there, but learn your program, and you'll start to know how to get exactly the right sound/effect/style of drums going on.

 

[petereanima]

this thread rules, please keep the stuff coming, dont stop.

 

[cyril v]

dammit, i had a huge post written out and accidentally closed my browser instead of going to my start menu (task bar is on right side of screen).

Anyways, I've been reviewing this Cubase instructional video and one technique the guy uses to get the drum beats to sound less mechanical is to:
1)open up a REAL drumloop in Cubase(ie wav of a real player), i guess it would have to be the correct tempo you're using?
2)then go to hitpoints and change the sensitivity to 1/16th notes
3)he was just trying to get the looser feel on the down beats, so he got rid of the lines that pop-up on everything else except the down beats.
4)go to "Audio>Hitpoints>Create Groove Quantize From Hitpoints".
5)then create a midi drum track with just notes you would want to land on the down beats (he used just kick and snare)
6)After that, go back to the main field view. Make sure the midi file is selected.
7)Go to "Midi>Quantize Setup...>" The Quantize map you're going to apply should have the same name as the file you created it from. Press "Apply Quantize".

What this should do is slightly move the position that the downbeats land on. IE, give you a more human feel to you're drums. From there he went on to add the cymbals on his on and when most of the song was finished he started throwing in extra kick drums and did the fills last.

Another thing he did, which doesn't really have much to do with drums, but adding a more realistic human feel is to move the tempo around throughout the song by 1-2bpm depending on the feel of the track. Using the "time stretch" feature for simple guitar parts to get them to fit in, and for metal I'd assume you'd probably have to just rerecord most guitar/bass/vocal lines to get them to sync properly. The purpose of this is to makes it sound more like a live band.

I honestly haven't gotten a chance to try this out myself... just got done with my days off and back to the 60hr/wk grind.

(if anyone wants this particular clip from the video, send me a PM and I'll send it out when I go on break later today (2pm) or when I get off of work (9pm))

 

[cycloptopus]

Awesome stuff from everyone here.

My personal preference in the process is to record scratch tracks first (flesh out the song), then program the drums and then re-record guitars once the drums are done. I do this to get the emotion from playing with the dynamics of the drum tracks as opposed to the staleness of the click. Not necessary perhaps, but I like it that way.

 

[synrgy]

Awesome stuff from everyone here.

My personal preference in the process is to record scratch tracks first (flesh out the song), then program the drums and then re-record guitars once the drums are done. I do this to get the emotion from playing with the dynamics of the drum tracks as opposed to the staleness of the click. Not necessary perhaps, but I like it that way.

That's also wise from the perspective that it's much easier to sculpt guitar tones around drums than it is to sculpt drum sound around guitar tone.

Another mixdown tip -- start with drums (at as low a volume as you can get away with to preserve headroom -- remember you can always bring up the master level later), get the levels for the drums good and balanced, and THEN bring up everything else -- ideally beginning with the bass, as nailing down bass around drums sets the foundation for everything else.

 

[Fred]

My favourite little trick which I've only ever seen Chimpy Paul do before is to program the drums with a MIDI keyboard (obviously one that's pressure-responsive, though). Admittedly he's far better at it than I am and I've never yet managed to do a whole song without having to tweak the odd fill here and there, but even if you just use it for the cymbals and then point-and-click the kick, snare and toms, it can make shit sound a hell of a lot more realistic. Not to mention it's a fuckload less time-consuming than changing individual velocities to make things sound more convincing.

The last song I recorded, I started off working out the beats I wanted (as a former drummer and someone who pays just as much attention to drum parts as guitar parts when listening to music, I've always found this bit the easiest!)

Then I programmed the cymbals via MIDI keyboard, then the kick, snare and toms. I tweaked the fills a bit and the occasional velocity I'd cocked up, then it's all done! Resultant song: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/fredbaty/softsounds.mp3

 

[toolsound]

Do you need a pretty decent computer to program drums with a midi keyboard? On my old computer the drum sounds would always lag behind the keyboard strikes. Admittedly, I haven't tried a midi keyboard with my new computer yet, but I'm wondering if I would experience the same results.

 

[Fred]

Ehhh, if your computer's good enough to run S2.0 or something equally RAM-gobbling, there shouldn't be an issue with latency. I'm running 4 gigs of RAM with a 2.4GHz processor on my recording computer, so it's pretty nice but not state-of-the-art or anything!

EDIT: Come to think of it, I've used the MIDI keyboard on my 2GB RAM, 1.8GHz laptop without any issues!