US Political Discussion: Biden/Harris Edition (Rules in OP)

[jaxadam]

https://politics.theonion.com/white-house-says-mueller-report-must-be-kept-private-be-1833813865

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

As a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit, the Clinton Foundation cannot spend money for the direct benefit of Hillary, Bill, their children, their business interests, any other board member, etc etc etc, and any indirect benefits have to be disclosed in a section about any potential conflicts of interest, to eliminate the possibility of secret self-dealing. So, yeah, the Saudis donating to the Clinton Foundation did not help Clinton's presidential campaign, because to do so would have broken nonprofit law.

In other news, Bloomberg is reporting that Mueller's team prepared their own summary of the Mueller report for public release, and are not happy that Barr chose to write his own, downplaying the strength of the evidence against Trump, and adding in a conclusion that he had not obstructed justice.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-for-handling-mueller-report?srnd=markets-vp

That's not a good look for Barr, or for Trump.

In other words, Mueller is trying to keep this going. Lol

 

[Explorer]

(T)his, IMO, is pretty huge:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-for-handling-mueller-report?srnd=markets-vp

That's potentially pretty damning - that as part of their report, the Mueller team had prepared summaries of key sections for public release, and presented pretty significant evidence of obstruction of justice. Barr then opted to write his own summary downplaying the evidence, and further concluded on his own that Trump had not obstructed justice.

So, just hours after the House Judiciary Committee voted to subpoena the Mueller report, members of Mueller’s team started leaking to multiple major news outlets that the report was far worse for Trump than Attorney General William Barr has claimed. The New York Times, Washington Post, and NBC News are now all independently reporting that Mueller’s team is privately accusing William Barr of substantially misrepresenting what’s really in the Mueller report. Nadler is using this leverage to take things to a whole new level.

He’s no longer interested in merely subpoenaing the Mueller report; he’s demanding that all communications be turned over between Mueller and Barr.

While Nadler has addressed his letter to Barr, it's a sure bet that Mueller and his team have their own copies of these communications as well. If Barr refuses to turn over the communications, or tries to drag out a subpoena battle, Nadler can quickly work around this by simply subpoenaing Mueller’s copies of the communications. Since members of Mueller’s team were moved to leak about Barr’s claimed duplicity, they’re surely willing to quickly cooperate with Nadler by supporting that claim.

Barr already started walking back his claims when the oversight committees started questioning Barr's claims of fact. A reasonable person might assume that Barr started thinking about whether his own actions might be an obstruction of justice....

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

Yes, please don't subpoena our report! Just let us leak our version of the findings, and we'll hope that will be good enough. My question is why does Mueller want to form the narrative of what's in there in the hopes they give up trying to get the report.

 

[Explorer]

Only an idiot would try to prevent the release of evidence which clears him. Even Trump is proving through his actions that he knows the report is bad for him. Don't like that simple fact? Take it up with Trump.

----

And, in new news, Cohen has uncovered and is handing over a hard drive with all emails, voice recordings, images and attachments from all Cohen's computers and phones, over 14 million files.

cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2019/images/04/04/04.04.19.cover.letter._redacted%5B1%5D.pdf

Cohen already provided enough evidence (not just testimony, but corroborating documents) to trigger what are likely to be successful requests for Trump's financial documents. The new stuff will likely be just as bad for Trump.

And now, back to the denial and trolling, to attempt to derail the adults from engaging in actual discussion....

 

[G_3_3_k_]

I mentioned it above, but he is delivering the report. It's just not quite as fast as they'd like.
If they're entitled to view the whole report with no redactions (which I'm not entirely sure of, but I'm sure someone else here knows for certain), then yes- he is likely violating Congress' right to view the information and take appropriate action.

What I guess I'm attempting to imply here is that redacting the report, classified information or not, reduces the ruling body's ability to do their job. They are elected officials who make the laws of our country. I find it to be an issue that there are things that other bodies may keep secret from congress. These other bodies have to abide by the rules set forth for their organizations by congress. Why is congress not entitled to full disclosure? I think the lack of transparency in our government is a serious issue. Not just with the public. But between parts of the government as well. How does congress effectively write law in regards to how the executive and judicial branches of government operate if they don't know all the details? ESPECIALLY in cases where Congress is supposed to exert its power constitutionally appointed it to check the power of another branch? Limiting access to the resources available to it is the definition of pulling its teeth. I don't think it's Barr or the DoJ's place to decide what is relevant to the case. They don't rule on it, so they don't get to decide what information is relevant. Doing so just makes them look like they're running political defense for the party being investigated in the first place. Whether they are or not. Especially in a case where the investigation is of the Chief executive who is in charge of the executive agency doing the investigation. Which in and of itself is the police policing the police. If this is a policy, its a bad one. If its a grey area, they need to legislate on it.

 

[G_3_3_k_]

In other words, Mueller is trying to keep this going. Lol

No. The investigation team wrote summaries of each part that did not include any classified information with the intent that those summaries be disclosed publicly. These summaries are IN the Mueller Document given to Barr in the first place. Barr's summary is his own conclusion, not the findings of the investigative team. Barr drew it out. I don't know if it was intentional or not. But I'm leaning towards it being intentional.

So, just hours after the House Judiciary Committee voted to subpoena the Mueller report, members of Mueller’s team started leaking to multiple major news outlets that the report was far worse for Trump than Attorney General William Barr has claimed. The New York Times, Washington Post, and NBC News are now all independently reporting that Mueller’s team is privately accusing William Barr of substantially misrepresenting what’s really in the Mueller report. Nadler is using this leverage to take things to a whole new level.

He’s no longer interested in merely subpoenaing the Mueller report; he’s demanding that all communications be turned over between Mueller and Barr.

While Nadler has addressed his letter to Barr, it's a sure bet that Mueller and his team have their own copies of these communications as well. If Barr refuses to turn over the communications, or tries to drag out a subpoena battle, Nadler can quickly work around this by simply subpoenaing Mueller’s copies of the communications. Since members of Mueller’s team were moved to leak about Barr’s claimed duplicity, they’re surely willing to quickly cooperate with Nadler by supporting that claim.

Barr already started walking back his claims when the oversight committees started questioning Barr's claims of fact. A reasonable person might assume that Barr started thinking about whether his own actions might be an obstruction of justice....

That's an interesting thought. Considering Trump hasn't been handing out any pardons, I think that Barr may be starting to hedge his bets a little.

From the beginning, I didn't expect there to be any collusion charges. What I did expect was Mueller to root out and shine light on corruption. Which he did really well. If you think that Trump surrounded himself with a bunch of corrupt people not knowing the kind of people or the kind of corruption they were involved in, you're crazy. Which makes him of questionable ability to lead the country. Everyone around him is looking out for number one and number two. One of those is Trump and the other is the individual in question. You know which one was number one based on the testimony they gave and their pleas if they were charged. And there were plenty of charges to go around. Rationally, there are two ways to look at this. Trump is a completely selfish narcissistic imbecile, or he's a completely selfish, narcissistic mastermind. Either way, the only thing he cares about in all of this is how this situation can be spun to make his life better.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

Only an idiot would try to prevent the release of evidence which clears him. Even Trump is proving through his actions that he knows the report is bad for him. Don't like that simple fact? Take it up with Trump.

Of course the report is bad for him.
Do you think we can have a team of incredibly competent and focused agents investigate every aspect of your life for 2 years and come up with a positive report that you'd want everyone in the country to read? Hell no lol. I want to see the report but I don't really blame him for not being excited at the prospect of the entire country rooting through his dirty laundry.

I mean sure, you should see that coming when you get into politics, but still. I don't think it's an entirely unrealistic position.

What I guess I'm attempting to imply here is that redacting the report, classified information or not, reduces the ruling body's ability to do their job. They are elected officials who make the laws of our country. I find it to be an issue that there are things that other bodies may keep secret from congress. These other bodies have to abide by the rules set forth for their organizations by congress. Why is congress not entitled to full disclosure? I think the lack of transparency in our government is a serious issue. Not just with the public. But between parts of the government as well. How does congress effectively write law in regards to how the executive and judicial branches of government operate if they don't know all the details? ESPECIALLY in cases where Congress is supposed to exert its power constitutionally appointed it to check the power of another branch? Limiting access to the resources available to it is the definition of pulling its teeth. I don't think it's Barr or the DoJ's place to decide what is relevant to the case. They don't rule on it, so they don't get to decide what information is relevant. Doing so just makes them look like they're running political defense for the party being investigated in the first place. Whether they are or not. Especially in a case where the investigation is of the Chief executive who is in charge of the executive agency doing the investigation. Which in and of itself is the police policing the police. If this is a policy, its a bad one. If its a grey area, they need to legislate on it.

Yeah, I agree- and I'm pretty confused on it as well. I've been reading conflicting accounts on what Congress is(n't) allowed to see, and the idea that they aren't entitled the full un-redacted report seems strange to me. At the same time, it's dirt on a sitting president, so I'm not really sure if that complicates things or not...this really feels like a fringe situation.
I recall during the Clinton shitstorm the house oversight committee was hellbent on getting their hands on a full, un-redacted report, and they had an absolute hell of a time. I remember at the time thinking "why in the world would they not be entitled to a clean report? They're the house oversight committee." This situation feels similar, and almost more dire- since Clinton was just a citizen, and only Congress can "indict" a sitting president, which is what we're dealing with here...
You're definitely making sense.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Of course the report is bad for him.
Do you think we can have a team of incredibly competent and focused agents investigate every aspect of your life for 2 years and come up with a positive report that you'd want everyone in the country to read? Hell no lol. I want to see the report but I don't really blame him for not being excited at the prospect of the entire country rooting through his dirty laundry.

I mean sure, you should see that coming when you get into politics, but still. I don't think it's an entirely unrealistic position.

It's not like he was some unknown. He's been, by his own doing, in the public eye his entire adult life.

He's been a regular in tabloid, gossip, and just generally trashy news for decades, like most C-list celebrities. His infidelity, draft dodging, business failures, and so forth are public knowledge.

What could he possibly have to hide that's more embarrassing than what we've known about him for decades?

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

It's not like he was some unknown. He's been, by his own doing, in the public eye his entire adult life.

He's been a regular in tabloid, gossip, and just generally trashy news for decades, like most C-list celebrities. His infidelity, draft dodging, business failures, and so forth are public knowledge.

What could he possibly have to hide that's more embarrassing than what we've known about him for decades?

Mistakes, fuckups, and stuff he shouldn't have done that isn't that big of a deal but definitely stuff that could potentially land folks in hot water.
Trump's ego, as we all know, is both the size of the sun, and incredibly vulnerable. If there's stuff in there that makes him look objectively bad or stupid, he's not going to want people to read it. Has he even had the chance to read it yet?

I think the point of why the other stuff wouldn't have been as big of deal is because for one there was never anywhere near as much potential for consequences as he faces now, and also that those publications were....tabloids, gossip, and generally trashy news. Most people didn't care. But now just about everybody does, and while he is many things, I don't know if I'd go so far as to call him that level of stupid.

All I'm saying is I get it. I think you guys do too, whether you want to admit it or not. I definitely wouldn't want a full report of all of the questionable things I've done released for the entire world to read, and I haven't even run for office

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Mistakes, fuckups, and stuff he shouldn't have done that isn't that big of a deal but definitely stuff that could potentially land folks in hot water.
Trump's ego, as we all know, is both the size of the sun, and incredibly vulnerable. If there's stuff in there that makes him look objectively bad or stupid, he's not going to want people to read it. Has he even had the chance to read it yet?

I think the point of why the other stuff wouldn't have been as big of deal is because for one there was never anywhere near as much potential for consequences as he faces now, and also that those publications were....tabloids, gossip, and generally trashy news. Most people didn't care. But now just about everybody does, and while he is many things, I don't know if I'd go so far as to call him that level of stupid.

All I'm saying is I get it. I think you guys do too, whether you want to admit it or not. I definitely wouldn't want a full report of all of the questionable things I've done released for the entire world to read, and I haven't even run for office

I never said I don't understand.

I'm just saying, he's already put a lot of very questionable, shitty, and stupid things out there, typically by choice.

It's just hard to imagine how bad it has to be for him to want to bury it that wouldn't either be: a) heinous enough for even his most ardent supporters to be put off or b) something genuinely illegal enough to be a problem.

Do you really think it's completely benign, normal people stuff? I highly doubt it's just copies of his PornHub search history.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

Do you really think it's completely benign, normal people stuff? I highly doubt it's just copies of his PornHub search history.

Noooo no no, of course not. That wasn't what I was implying at all.
Just that I think it's a fantastical notion for anyone to put forward that there was ever a possibility of the report actually being positive. My point was that the report was always going to be negative, because if you ran a similar report for just about any person on the planet, it'd likely come out negative. Not that it'd comparable to whatever you'd see from Joe Blow. Nobody escapes that level of scrutiny

Imagine the field day people would have if his search history got leaked and he was into watersports though.
That'd be a fun news cycle.

 

[spudmunkey]

Imagine the field day people would have if his search history got leaked and he was into watersports though.
That'd be a fun news cycle.

I'm having trouble deciding which would make for better The Onion stories... "golden shower" porn, or incest porn.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Noooo no no, of course not. That wasn't what I was implying at all.
Just that I think it's a fantastical notion for anyone to put forward that there was ever a possibility of the report actually being positive. My point was that the report was always going to be negative, because if you ran a similar report for just about any person on the planet, it'd likely come out negative. Not that it'd comparable to whatever you'd see from Joe Blow. Nobody escapes that level of scrutiny

Imagine the field day people would have if his search history got leaked and he was into watersports though.
That'd be a fun news cycle.

If it exonerates him of any legal wrong doings, I'd chalk that up as a net positive, porn preferences not withstanding.

It's only negative if it puts him in a worse spot than he currently is.

I'm having trouble deciding which would make for better The Onion stories... "golden shower" porn, or incest porn.

Both?

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

If it exonerates him of any legal wrong doings, I'd chalk that up as a net positive, porn preferences not withstanding.

It's only negative if it puts him in a worse spot than he currently is.

To a reasonable person, yes.
I'm not sure he sees it that way though. He strikes me as a 'have my cake and eat it too' kind of guy. He probably wants people to just accept Barr's ruling and call it a day.
And the ego thing. I really think he doesn't want to give the press one more iota of ammunition.

 

[Drew]

I think Barr's memo is absolutely justified, since that seemed to be the fastest way to inform the American people of what the investigation's findings were. The jury is still out on whether or not his conclusion itself was, but until I can see the evidence and make a decision one way or the other, I like to think I can trust the AG.

You know, I think that's actually a reasonable distinction you're making here - if there was going to be a long process to approve the report for release, then maybe SOME sort of summary was justified. I think it's pretty likely, based on what we already knew before the release of the report, that Barr downplayed some of the murkiness on collusion, however, and I think including his own decision to absolve Trump of obstruction of justice was NOT appropriate, though, since that was not part of Mueller's findings and doing so has created the illusion (certainly in Trump's eyes) that it was.

I'm not so sure about this, from what I've read, it wasn't so much that they "had to," they just wanted it and they wanted it right now.

First, a slight clarification, they've voted to approve a subpoena, but they haven't actually issued one. But, they're after the unredacted report, for release to the House committee, while Barr is saying in another two weeks or so he'll be able to share a redacted one with Congress. That's the distinction in why they're threatening to subpoena it.

Why are people talking like this was all Barr's idea? This has been DoJ policy since 1973.

Slight mistake on my part here as well. The president being above indictment has been DOJ protocol - untested, but respected by convention - for a long time now. Barr's addition was that the President also definitionally could not obstruct justice, which is NOT a traditional DOJ interpretation of the Constitution.

But, yeah, the weird - and important - part here is if Barr believes the President cannot be indicted by a DOJ official because that responsibility is constitutionally given to Congress, then he very likely overstepped his authority when he cleared Trump of obstruction. The degree to which Rosenstein and Mueller were involved in that decision is my biggest question right now, and if it was largely Barr acting alone, that's a problem.

 

[Drew]

In other words, Mueller is trying to keep this going. Lol

Are you actually paying attention here, or are you just trolling?

Mueller's job is done. He's not trying to "keep this going" for personal gain. He presented his conclusions, and it looks a lot like he expected Congress, and not Barr, to decide whether or not they were actionable. Either way, the investigation has concluded, he's done, and unless some new information comes out that leads the DOJ to reopen the investigation (see: Comey letter), Mueller has handed this off.

 

[G_3_3_k_]

Imagine the field day people would have if his search history got leaked and he was into watersports though.
That'd be a fun news cycle.

Dude is generally Milquetoast. Aside from the rumours of the stuff from the Steele Dossier. He eats well done Steak with ketchup. I can guarantee my pornhub searches are more ‘interesting’ than his are. Most likely very different, and definitely more interesting.

 

[Spaced Out Ace]

I highly doubt a guy who is germaphobic like Donald is purported to be wants any bodily fluids anywhere near him. I think germaphobia might be a Gemini thing. I am a germaphobic Gemini as well.

 

[Ralyks]

He eats well done Steak with ketchup.

Which is a crime right there...