26.5" scale tuning experiences

[vansinn]

As you know, I resently bought my Schecter Riot 8 ltd (http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/173324-ngd-schecter-riot-8-ltd.html)

I've been experimenting with tunings and string gauges, and here's my findings.

So far F1# doesn't too well for me at this scale.
I tried the stock D'addario .074, a Rotosound .080 bass string, a D'Addario .085 bass string, both adaptd to the tuner.
All three have produced a gruntling sound, especially from about 7th fret and up.
My best result has been a D'addario .064 tuned to around A1

Do note that I'm aware others have made other strings work; I just decided to initially try with what's available in local stores, before starting to shop online.

I also tried tuning B1...E4+G4. Cute tuning, in a fashion. The additional G4 is fairly easy to use in chord works.
However, I did find that the minor-3rd step from E4 to G4 was too problematic for shredding.
My mind is accustomed to coping with the major-3rd step from G to B in traditional tunings, but then readjusting on the fly to a minor-3rd step just doesn't work for me.
I found myself placing fingers based on expecting a major-3rd step, i.e. the upper string should've been a G4#.

But.. G4# won't work either, because I bend all the time.
Even just one semitone up will be A4, and the .008 string will snap.

So, I ended up with this full-fourth tuning:

All-fourth G tuning, almost ideal, current setup
len 26.5"
G4 .0075" P == 13.99#
D4 .010" P == 13.9#
A3 .013" P == 13.19#
E3 .018" P == 14.19#
B2 .024" N == 12.04#
F2# .036" N == 14.92#
C2# .050" N == 15.62#
G1# .070" N == 17.51# try ProSteel
total == 115.36#

At the moment, due to unavailable strings in shops, I'm using 008, which just needs a fine trim to be perfect, and 064 for the low G1#, which is too slinky but still almost works.
The .075 will likely work better for smooth bendings, else I can live with a .008.
If you wonder about the less tensioned B2 .024, it's simply to allow the same ease of bendings as with the others. It doesn't feel overly slinky or lacking tone.

This tuning really works out for me. Both low and high enough, and no problems with breaking strings.
Navigating the whole board in a symmetrical all-fourth tuning is amazingly easy.
This also separates this instrument from my primary 6'er in standard E tuning, which is a good thing, as it's taking my playing elsewhere, better allowing for further music developments.

My only issue is finding a G1# string that sounds good all the way up.
As said above, those I've tried produced a grunty tone.
I'm thinking of trying a D'Addario Prosteel, as those should be quite bright. I just don't know if it'll have the grunty/distorted sound as well..
Kusuvai suggested trying a GHS Boomer.

 

[Ishan]

Did you properly adjust intonation for each strings you tried, because that might be part of your problem.

 

[vansinn]

Yup, except for the .064 I'm using at the moment, which is only temporarily, until I have a .070.
Just in case, I just did the small amount of needed intonation adjustment, with only very little improvement.
The strings I've tried have all had a wierd tone, like multiple disharmonic harmonics.

I forgot to add to my OP that they also all have a pretty dull sound with less sustain than the other strings, that is, until I tune them higher than intended.
As already said, the .064 has been the one with the best tone, when tuned up one note.
At this pitch, the tension will be 18-19 pounds, compared to the other low strings wich sounds just fine around 15-16 pounds.

I don't mind an increasing tension scheme; it just doesn't feel right with an almost logarithmic tension increase, or at least, this results in the lowermost string feeling way thicker than the others, and as such, an awkard feeling for the fingers.

 

[TheLotusEater725]

I'm playing a bone stock c-8 hellraiser special tuned to C standard with a high f and low g. It sounds really brutal and cleans the muddiness i am getting in standard 8 string tuning.
Low to high I am using

G -.75
C-.65
F-.54
A#-.42
D# -.32
G-. 17
C- .13
F- .10


I haven't calculated out how much tension that puts on my neck but so far my Hellraiser seems to take kindly too it. It definitely feels comfy to me and I really cant go any lower than f# with the .75 otherwise it sounds like warbley sludge through my otherwise decent amplifier.

(Off topic question, how is the fret access on your Riot? i love the feel of my c-8's neck but the body limits my upper fret access.)

 

[vansinn]

Update.

I shopped an Earnie Ball Power Slinky 5-string bass set today, and used the 050 and 070 strings for my two lower ones. Had to replace the large balls for guitar sized ones.

What a difference! I don't usually turn to superlatives, but..
The G1# now has almost no odd harmonics, and is fully useful up to about 15t fret.
I then replaced the 052 D'Addario with the 050 EB, and got a nicely better tone on that too.
Tone is strong, direct and crisp. The polished finish feels nice under dem finga tips.

Another most welcome benefit is that they both lock-in to pitch right away, and stays there.
All I had to do was prestretch a Bit.

The D'Addarios were more difficult to tune to correct pitch, and tended to shift a Bit up'n'down, both while playing, especially with bendings or deep finger-pull vibrato, and likewise didn't retain tuning between sessions.

The Earnie Balls simply locks and stays. Steel balls

The shop owner, whose dad started the consortium Danish Aluminum Industries, told me the hex core of those is made from 1818 steel, where many others use 1805 or lower.
I haven't yet looked up these alloys, but IIRC, the last two figures refer to the carbon contents.
If so, it makes sense, as higher carbon contents should result in a more change-resillient alloy with better 'memory'.

(Off topic question, how is the fret access on your Riot? i love the feel of my c-8's neck but the body limits my upper fret access.)

Upper fret access is cool, with the sexy heel providing a smooth neck-body transition, and the body cut reaching almost to 24th fret.

 

[F0rte]

Upper fret access is cool, with the sexy heel providing a smooth neck-body transition, and the body cut reaching almost to 24th fret.

I also have the Schecter Riot 8 ltd, havent messed with strings too much on it yet, I have been dealing with stocks as I got used to the ERG feel and since I just ordered a shit ton of gear.

The guitar itself is extremely light, and its got a great feel and is able to bring out a great crisp tone.

The cut away is ridiculous to say the least, and it resembles the Dean RC7X which is almost CUSTOM and has major fret access for shredding. This guitar resembles it very well.

The only thing I don't like on it are the stock EMG's...
Gonna be switching them out here pretty soon after I get strings switched up and what I decide will work on it as for tone.

Anyway, it's a great playing guitar. Sounds fantastic on the Axe Fx II.

 

[stuglue]

Vansin your posts on tuning for 8 string guitars has been very informative. I still need to get my head around string tension.
Anyway I've been thinking of a workaround to my dilemma of wanting to add a high A to an 8 string. I believe rather than tuning to A 440 I should tune a semi tone flat. Doing this will allow me to tune up to Ab on the high string and allow me to bend without worrying about strings breaking. I have to admit to being unclear on the correct gauge for the tuning, my understanding isn't theoretically there yet, all I know is that tuning flat will make the strings flap so I'll need maybe gauge 10s, but that's guess work on my part. The reason I would tune to Eb would be so that I don't have to break the guitars 4th tuning (plus that major 3rd) I don't want any more intervals that will confused my fingers

 

[rekab]

I use a similar tuning on my schecter 8
GDGCFBbDG
Solves the high g# issue (still a high g, just a bit less tension) as well as the fourths/thirds in all the wrong places issue. Give it a go, you might just feel at home with it

 

[Brohoodofsteel75]

Use a La Bella 82, It sounds way more crispy compare to a bass string.

 

[vansinn]

^ yup, been thinking of trying the LB 082, actually the whole equal tensioned set

Reason I'm using the Ernie Ball Power Slinky bass string is the piano-like tone, which I discovered when fitting their .135 on my bass, plus they lock-in nicely.

 

[stuglue]

Vansinn, what gauges would you recommend for an 8 string tuned
Ab
Eb
Bb
Gb
Db
Ab
Eb
Bb
If I go from regular E tuning to eb will a set of tens be ideal

 

[vansinn]

Look at my tension calculations above, and in my Riot 8 thread, and in other tuning/scale/tension threads.

I really can't say what will be right for you, it's so individual..
You didn't state which scale, which makes it impossible to suggest strings.

You really will want to get familiar with the online tension calculator from bangzero.
Start with strings data for one of your favourite 6/7-stringers, calculate the tensions, and then add strings up to eight.
Calculate the resulting tensions for the strings you think will work, and then change scales, strings and gauges.

I spend two years reading and asking in here about 8-stringers, then searched for half a year or a used RGA8 (because I knew pups would need immidiate replacement) but didn't find any.
I finally saw pics of the Riot and decided to get my feet wet on a three month one at a fari price, well knowing I was asking for potential trouble on the low end due to the short 26.5" scale.
I love my Riot, have spend $'s on strings, and at the moment has settled on the A1...G4 tuning
Could've been the same with a used Blackjack/ATX or Damien. Or RGA, if I had located one

My point is: Either search and read a lot of posts about scales, tension, tunings, or maybe land a used resellable one for the wet feet factor

Many in here picks single strings, some use a 6'string set plus two fatter ones, some use modified bass strings.
At least for a 27" scale, I believe La Bella's custom shop 082...009 set is the only useful out-of-the-box tension-balanced set.
Might work well on 26.5" scale too; haven't tried it yet..

 

[stuglue]

The guitar im looking at is 26.5

 

[vansinn]

To reach A4b (or G4# as I call it), your best bet will likely be an Ernie Ball 007.
EB is using a slightly higher carbon alloy steel than most others, which may yield slightly higher tensile strength.

But do note that I still haven't tried those myself.
I'm going to order ten packs of both their 008 and 007, for experimenting with G4# on my Riot and A4 on my old 25" Dan Armstrong.

G4# @26.5"will be right at the breaking limit, so YMMV, especially if you intend to bend.

For the other strings, try starting with the tensions I've showed in my Riot 8 thread (check my profile for link), as well as searching other threads.
These gauges/tensions likely will be fairly close to your half step higher tuning, maybe only needing replacing the 017 whazzits name with a 016 and the next one with a 020 or 022.
The low EB 050 and 070 bass strings will work fine for you, though you may decide to use guitar strings at these non-heavy gauges.
I tried those bass strings because I had them leftover anyways from bass experiments, and then decided to keep them.
The standard outfitted 074 may also work fine at Bb1.

I assume you're considering this tuning because you're used to playing Eb (E-flat) tuning on 6/7 stringers. If so, it makes sense, and will provide you an E-flat with additional high screaming shizzle

 

[stuglue]

Cheers for that, yes I have played in Eb before. I don't want to go any lower than that.
I won't get my guitar until August due to the wait for shipping so I would like to read your comments on how the new Ernie ball cobalt strings perform under your stress test.