7 string Ball-Bearing trem?????

[Durero]

this is true, unfortunately. but it's like when people refer to a computer as a "hard drive"--just because the masses call it one way doesn't make it correct. plain and simple, the term is being used incorrectly.

haha agreed. Heck even the term tremolo is technically inappropriate, it's a vibrato function that these "trems" perform.

low friction is still greater than no friction. a floyd (with good knife edges) has essentially 0 rotational friction. hence the long and clean flutter as the springs/strings fight toward equilibrium. even a tiny bit of additional friction is enough to dampen those vibrations much more quickly.

The only way a Floyd could achieve zero rotational friction is if its knife edge was shaped into an infinitely sharp point - that is a point with zero width which is of course physically impossible. When the knife edge moves it rolls over the surface of the trem posts. Certainly this is a low friction situation but modern ball-bearing assemblies are machined with incredible precision and are also extremely low friction.

i don't deny that the saddle/cam setup of a kahler does contribute even more to the flutter killing, though. after all, none of my kahlers get any audible flutter to speak of and the bar doesn't have the flutter action you speak of. they pretty much snap back to neutral with only a few milliseconds of bounce (even if i let go from an extreme pull or dump).

You're absolutely right about the Kahlers not having the flutter action I mentioned in my previous post and that was my mistake. I should have said Steinberger (Trans-Trem and S-Trem models) which have the same cam-pivoting-behind-fixed-saddles design as Kahlers but are much much heavier and flutter for much longer than the Kahlers, though have the same sustain-killing roller saddles as the Kahlers which render the flutter much less effective than Floyds.

but again, my experience with the ZRs that i've actually used with my own hands is that they get no significant flutter either. in playing them alone there's a little flutter that dies pretty quickly (nowhere near what can be accomplished on a floyd), but i doubt it would be really noticeable in a mix. it sounds more like a fraction-of-a-second mistake than a deliberate flutter effect.

I agree that the ZR as they come setup with the Backstop zero-position system hardly flutter at all but neither would a Floyd with a Backstop or Trem-setter system installed. Though I've tried the ZR many times and love it's design, I don't own one and have never had a chance to remove the Backstop (which is very easy to do) so that it can float freely like a Floyd. I'd love to try that some day.


(enjoying this whole discussion with you btw )

 

[Durero]

Very interesting discussions Now, I rely a lot on parm muting, and because of this have found Floyds to be unuseful. Sure, it could be a matter of technique..
I also simply can't have whammies not returning neatly to zero.

From trying out Ibanez's with ZR 's, the ZR seems to neatly fit my style. I just don't have enough experience with Ibby's to judge potential sustain issues.
This would be for a 26"-26.5" scale mostly for prog/symph metal and prog fusion jazz.
I don't divebomb or pull much, mostly use a whammy to dip/up-glide notes, kinda as an inverse bending technique.

Any comments on ZR's WRT sustain? Tone?

Also, I wonder if it's possible to angle a ZR slightly for a small fan, say half an inch..

Any double-locking system like a Floyd or ZR should have great sustain, approaching that of a fixed bridge. The "cam" designs (Kahler, Steinberger, Bigsby) actually have fixed saddles and so should have fantastic sustain, however they use roller wheels on each saddle to reduce friction of the strings moving over the saddles when you move the bar, so sustain performance can be reduced if the roller wheels and axles are not tight-fitting and precisely machined and therefore able to vibrate and drain energy from the strings motion.

The big sustain problem with "cam" bridges we've been discussing only happens when you are actually moving the bar which causes the fixed saddles to produce a damping action on the strings.


Is it a 7-string or 6-string ZR you're talking about using for your multi-scale design?

If you're talking about laying out the fan evenly with 1/4" scale difference at both the nut and bridge then I'd bet that there's enough adjustment room at the bridge to accommodate that, but you should get the specs on how much intonation compensation you need for the string gages you plan to use and whether that leaves 1/4" of adjustment room left on your lowest string.

I'd definitely go for mounting the ZR straight instead of angled if at all possible. If you angle it then the strings will drift slightly from side to side as you move the bar which could be annoying.

You could also simply put the 1/2" difference in scale entirely at the nut and eliminate the need for any angle at the bridge at all. I play a much more extreme fan than this and find it very comfortable. Fretboard mockups ftw

 

[Elysian]

ful⋅crum [fool-kruhm, fuhl-], noun
1. the support, or point of rest, on which a lever turns in moving a body.

by the dictionary definition, a ZR trem is a fulcrum trem

 

[vansinn]

From trying out Ibanez's with ZR 's, the ZR seems to neatly fit my style. This would be for a 26"-26.5" scale mostly for prog/symph metal and prog fusion jazz.
I don't divebomb or pull much, mostly use a whammy to dip/up-glide notes, kinda as an inverse bending technique.
Also, I wonder if it's possible to angle a ZR slightly for a small fan, say half an inch..

Any double-locking system like a Floyd or ZR should have great sustain, approaching that of a fixed bridge. The "cam" designs (Kahler, Steinberger, Bigsby) actually have fixed saddles and so should have fantastic sustain, however they use roller wheels on each saddle to reduce friction of the strings moving over the saddles when you move the bar, so sustain performance can be reduced if the roller wheels and axles are not tight-fitting and precisely machined and therefore able to vibrate and drain energy from the strings motion.

The big sustain problem with "cam" bridges we've been discussing only happens when you are actually moving the bar which causes the fixed saddles to produce a damping action on the strings.

Is it a 7-string or 6-string ZR you're talking about using for your multi-scale design?

If you're talking about laying out the fan evenly with 1/4" scale difference at both the nut and bridge then I'd bet that there's enough adjustment room at the bridge to accommodate that, but you should get the specs on how much intonation compensation you need for the string gages you plan to use and whether that leaves 1/4" of adjustment room left on your lowest string.

I'd definitely go for mounting the ZR straight instead of angled if at all possible. If you angle it then the strings will drift slightly from side to side as you move the bar which could be annoying.

Thanks for comments, Leo. It's partly related to my ext.range project; however, this will per definition take quite some time, guess why..
Untill then I'll need a 7 stringer of sorts, and have considered either modding a Dean Vendetta 1.7 with a (refurbished?) ZR or shopping a used Ibby.
I don't wan't to invest too much into either as my ext project design wise is progressing well. It's a matter of balance between time and the enevitable finance.

Whatever, I agree on the angled ZR approach, didn't consider the sideways string/saddle motion. Hmm.. I see you point on having the fan at heads end, just 'feel' I'd prefer a more even spit. I'll get a better feel when I start on the mockups

I can't completely agree with your comments on rollers and loss of sustain.
I believe it's more than just a matter of rollers or not; however, it is pretty difficult making such small rollers and bearings to tight tolerances, while having some mass in the rollers and also keep them sufficiently sealed to avoid them getting stuck due to dust.

Graphite rollers might be a good thing, as those doesn't require a lubricant eventually getting sticky. Graphtech will happily make them - if I order 1000
Mark Edwards from Overlorde had a Gibson-Kahler modded with graphite rollers. I emailed him a few times about where he got the rollers, but never got an answer.

 

[damigu]

haha agreed. Heck even the term tremolo is technically inappropriate, it's a vibrato function that these "trems" perform.

it's true--but i've given up on that debate long ago.
personally, i just dive bomb and do crazy pulls-ups with a whammy. the way i see it, i can do vibrato with my fingers--the whammy is there for gymnastics.

The only way a Floyd could achieve zero rotational friction is if its knife edge was shaped into an infinitely sharp point - that is a point with zero width which is of course physically impossible. When the knife edge moves it rolls over the surface of the trem posts. Certainly this is a low friction situation but modern ball-bearing assemblies are machined with incredible precision and are also extremely low friction.

that's why i said "essentially" zero. it's definitely not zero. but the internal friction of the strings and springs dampening their own stretching is orders of magnitude greater than the friction of the knife edges against the studs. easily the dominant friction in the system.

even high precision bearings with exactly the right amount of lube are going to have significantly greater friction than a knife-edge pivot.

of course, having just mentioned what i did about the springs own internal friction, i'm now thinking about the fact that a kahler's springs are significantly tighter than a floyd's (2 small springs that are barely stretched that can provide the same pull as 3-4 significantly larger and longer floyd springs), so they're obviously helping kill flutter faster, too.

I agree that the ZR as they come setup with the Backstop zero-position system hardly flutter at all but neither would a Floyd with a Backstop or Trem-setter system installed.

there's a ZR in free floating mode at my local sam ash (on a prestige S poplar burl--nice looking guitar, but the S series are just too thin in the body) and it doesn't get any real flutter. it sounds like very fast fart, basically.

which kind of goes against what i just said about the kahler's springs a minute ago.
so it still seems that the bearings are a big factor in flutter killing, but other aspects of a kahler certainly kill it much faster.

ful⋅crum [fool-kruhm, fuhl-], noun
1. the support, or point of rest, on which a lever turns in moving a body.

by the dictionary definition, a ZR trem is a fulcrum trem

why is there no smiley where i can stick my tongue out at you?
(by that interpretation, a kahler is a fulcrum trem, too)

 

[Elysian]

it's true--but i've given up on that debate long ago.
personally, i just dive bomb and do crazy pulls-ups with a whammy. the way i see it, i can do vibrato with my fingers--the whammy is there for gymnastics.



that's why i said "essentially" zero. it's definitely not zero. but the internal friction of the strings and springs dampening their own stretching is orders of magnitude greater than the friction of the knife edges against the studs. easily the dominant friction in the system.

even high precision bearings with exactly the right amount of lube are going to have significantly greater friction than a knife-edge pivot.

of course, having just mentioned what i did about the springs own internal friction, i'm now thinking about the fact that a kahler's springs are significantly tighter than a floyd's (2 small springs that are barely stretched that can provide the same pull as 3-4 significantly larger and longer floyd springs), so they're obviously helping kill flutter faster, too.



there's a ZR in free floating mode at my local sam ash (on a prestige S poplar burl--nice looking guitar, but the S series are just too thin in the body) and it doesn't get any real flutter. it sounds like very fast fart, basically.

which kind of goes against what i just said about the kahler's springs a minute ago.
so it still seems that the bearings are a big factor in flutter killing, but other aspects of a kahler certainly kill it much faster.



why is there no smiley where i can stick my tongue out at you?
(by that interpretation, a kahler is a fulcrum trem, too)

no it isn't, because the whole body doesn't move.

 

[damigu]

no it isn't, because the whole body doesn't move.

the definition you quoted doesn't stipulate that requirement.

if you interpret "bearings" as "a point about which a lever can pivot" (which is an arguably inaccurate interpretation) then kahler bridges meet that operational standard.

 

[Ketzer]

I think at this point the argument has descended into abstract.

 

[Koshchei]

That's a mistaken understanding of the "fulcrum" term. Fulcrum refers to designs such as the Floyd, Fender and ZR in which the whole bridge (including the saddles) pivots up and down to change the pitch (also good for fluttering).

The contrasting design of Kahlers and Steinbergers is the cam design in which the pitch changing mechanism pivots behind the bridge saddles which remain fixed. This design sucks for fluttering because the fixed saddles act like dampers when the strings slide back and forth over them.

The ZR trem is an example of a fulcrum trem which uses ball-bearings.


I'm surprised the original poster didn't gravitate towards the ZR as it fits his description perfectly if you remove the zero position bar (which is designed to be removable) so it floats freely. I'd assume it'd flutter with the best of them in floating mode, but then again if Rich says otherwise I'd believe him.

It flutters like crazy in floating mode. It's a REALLY awesome trem, excluding the horrible arm holder assembly.

edit: to quantify that, expect excessive play when it works properly, and the cheap pot metal sleeve to fatigue and shear every six months. Considering how awesome the rest of the unit is, the arm assembly is like a sick joke designed to make you curse god for making penny-pinching accountants.

 

[Durero]

even high precision bearings with exactly the right amount of lube are going to have significantly greater friction than a knife-edge pivot.

I think this is the main point we disagree on. As I've said modern bearings are made with incredible precision, and the motivation for trem makers to switch from knife-edge designs to bearing assemblies is to reduce fricition. But hey, we can agree to disagree on this

of course, having just mentioned what i did about the springs own internal friction, i'm now thinking about the fact that a kahler's springs are significantly tighter than a floyd's (2 small springs that are barely stretched that can provide the same pull as 3-4 significantly larger and longer floyd springs), so they're obviously helping kill flutter faster, too.

You're missing some physics here by not taking into account the leverage that the springs have in the two designs. The springs on a Floyd can be weaker because they're pulling on a leverage point which is significantly farther away from the axis of rotation - more than twice the distance and therefore leverage of a Kahler. In fact the effective leverage that the springs of a Kahler have on the bar is less than the springs of a Floyd and you can feel this by comparing how much force is needed to move the bar. Kahlers are known for their easier action.

there's a ZR in free floating mode at my local sam ash (on a prestige S poplar burl--nice looking guitar, but the S series are just too thin in the body) and it doesn't get any real flutter. it sounds like very fast fart, basically.

That's strange that a guitar store would have an S series on display with the Backstop mechanism removed. Did you take the back plate off to see that there were only two springs instead of four? With the Backstop on you can still pull the bar up and down, but pushing the bar down engages two more springs so that the trem has a strong zero-position and can be retuned without adjusting spring tension.

 

[vansinn]

even high precision bearings with exactly the right amount of lube are going to have significantly greater friction than a knife-edge pivot.

I think this is the main point we disagree on. As I've said modern bearings are made with incredible precision, and the motivation for trem makers to switch from knife-edge designs to bearing assemblies is to reduce fricition. But hey, we can agree to disagree on this

Hmm.. I sometime think of opening the bearings, wash out the oil and dry them, then halfways fill them with graphite powder and use a slow revolving electric drill to spin the bearing to settle the graphite to a kinda polished surface on all parts.
Might result in lower friction, and at least less stickyness.. while also being less dust-sticky.

 

[Elysian]

I think this is the main point we disagree on. As I've said modern bearings are made with incredible precision, and the motivation for trem makers to switch from knife-edge designs to bearing assemblies is to reduce fricition. But hey, we can agree to disagree on this

actually, if theres one downfall of the ZR trem, its that the bearings are not precision by any means, they can actually move side to side with ease...

 

[damigu]

I think this is the main point we disagree on. As I've said modern bearings are made with incredible precision, and the motivation for trem makers to switch from knife-edge designs to bearing assemblies is to reduce fricition. But hey, we can agree to disagree on this

the changeover is not about reducing friction but about two things:
1/ longevity (kahlers--and these ZR bridges--can last a lifetime with just some drops of lube every decade or so), and
2/ avoiding floyd patent licensing fees (i think that was the main drive behind ibanez even undertaking the R&D for the ZR in the first place).

it's absurd to "agree to disagree" over a factual matter. if you want to prove your case, here's an experiment:
you know those metal wire "perpetual motion" stick man things?
get 2 of those of the guy in a swing that uses a knife-edge type pivot (with 2 sharp points placed into divots). replace the joint with bearings on one of them. then see how long each one oscillates.
i'm willing to bet a donut that the knife-edge style one lasts significantly longer with typical bearings (the kind you'd find in the ZR or kahler).

using bearings for guitar bridges isn't about getting the lowest possible friction. it's about getting the lowest friction without the inherent instability or wear of the knife-edge design (and, in some cases, avoiding licensing fees).

 

[Elysian]

the changeover is not about reducing friction but about two things:
1/ longevity (kahlers--and these ZR bridges--can last a lifetime with just some drops of lube every decade or so), and
2/ avoiding floyd patent licensing fees (i think that was the main drive behind ibanez even undertaking the R&D for the ZR in the first place).

it's absurd to "agree to disagree" over a factual matter. if you want to prove your case, here's an experiment:
you know those metal wire "perpetual motion" stick man things?
get 2 of those of the guy in a swing that uses a knife-edge type pivot (with 2 sharp points placed into divots). replace the joint with bearings on one of them. then see how long each one oscillates.
i'm willing to bet a donut that the knife-edge style one lasts significantly longer with typical bearings (the kind you'd find in the ZR or kahler).

using bearings for guitar bridges isn't about getting the lowest possible friction. it's about getting the lowest friction without the inherent instability or wear of the knife-edge design (and, in some cases, avoiding licensing fees).

if i'm not mistaken, the floyd patent is up, hence why you don't see "Licensed Floyd" on any of the edge pro variants...

 

[jymellis]

Hmm.. I sometime think of opening the bearings, wash out the oil and dry them, then halfways fill them with graphite powder and use a slow revolving electric drill to spin the bearing to settle the graphite to a kinda polished surface on all parts.
Might result in lower friction, and at least less stickyness.. while also being less dust-sticky.

or you could buy a good set of ceramic bearings!

 

[damigu]

if i'm not mistaken, the floyd patent is up, hence why you don't see "Licensed Floyd" on any of the edge pro variants...

some but not all of floyd's patents are expired. most of the edge variants were made to avoid the ones that are still in effect while utilizing the ones that are expired.

 

[cyberman]

I hate to say it, but I'm about to make you guys jealous: Before he got all frustrated w/ me & stopped selling his ball bearing Floyd Roses as replacement parts to folks other than those who own one of his Excalibur series guitars, Patrice Vigier (Of Vigier Guitars) did sell me one of those trems which, when I first had it installed on an Ibanez USA Custom "Iceworld" guitar that I used to own, didn't stay in tune very well. I later found out that the most likely culprit for this was the two screws which're on the back of the neck behind the locking nut were too loose & needed tightening. Wish I'd known that back then, or otherwise I wouldn't've complained & he might still be selling those trems seperately right now (As Bugs Bunny once said, "ME & MY BIG FAT MOUTH!!!"). So, needless to say, I was at one point going to sell my ball bearing Floyd, but I thought I'd give it another spin, only this time on my Kramer Pro Axe Standard (Which is basically my main guitar these days[Despite owning a Schecter C7-FR which I got back in October]). And wouldn't ya'know it? It managed to stay in tune this time(And still does!)! Not only that, but I can get all kinds of flutter out of it(Since it's fully floating & set up to pull my G string up a fifth to "D" exactly[Ala Steve Vai]). (Sigh) But alas, I guess if I ever wanted just one of his ball bearing Floyds again, I'd hafta spend over $2,000 for one of his Excalibur Standard or Excalibur Custom guitars just so's I could rip it offa there & use it on one of mine(And I don't think that's something that's really worth my time or money doing anyways! Not to mention the fact that Patrice would probably frown on such a practice!). But I digress! At any rate, I'm quite happy w/ my Kramer &, just in case yer wonderin', no, it's not for sale(Sorry!). One final note, I actually ended up sellin' the Floyd Rose Pro that originally came on it to some guy on Ebay(Man! Am I glad that I didn't make the mistake of sellin' the Vigier trem to somebody!) As Brad Gillis once said about the Floyd on his main red Strat, "It works so well, I'm spoiled!" Same thing w/ the Vigier Floyd: No more knife edges for me(At least on my Kramer, that is! As for my other guitars[Particularly the Schecter], I can't really speak for them as I pretty much hafta keep the knife edges on that one well lubed in order to keep it in tune.)! (Sigh!) Oh well, can't have everything! Well, that's about all for now! And laters!

Sincerely,

Van

Birmingham, Alabama

 

[bulletbass man]

2ZRT1RN7K2

That is the parts number for the Ibanez 7 string ZR. You can get parts through Hoshino USA again I believe. You just have to call them up. If not you can take it to any Ibanez dealer and have them order it for you. Ed roman has no extra connections. You're just more likely to pay way more than you have to or not get the right bridge at all.

Kahler makes some great 7 string trems. Easy to order. Extremely different opposed to a floyd. They aren't for everyone. However you may find that you prefer them. (I do actually) They are rather expensive though.



EDIT:

TO CLEAR THINGS UP

ZR is a ball bearing fulcrum trem.
Edge or OFR is a knife edge fulcrum trem.
Kahler is a Cam trem (well most of thier models and any current model as all fulcrum style are discontinued)

Kahler works nothing like a floyd.