7 string Ball-Bearing trem?????
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Rooster
Well-Known Member
zombietime
Well-Known Member
I thought Ed Roman invented kittens?
Ketzer
Good news, everyone!
Piro
Well-Known Member
lol Ed Roman is really a prick. But I dunno I'l also contact Tremking, I got one of their TK-1 bridges for my strat and i love it. They have really good customer support and whatnot so ask them if theyd make one.
Rooster
Well-Known Member
After talking with Rich, I decided to refurbish my Lo Pro Edge 7 trems. The ZR trem won't work for me. Reading his tech section was amazing. So, for about $80 in parts (and some spare stuff), I'll have both trems running better than new.
Someday, a locking, fulcrum-style, ball bearing, 7 string trem, made in Germany or Japan will hit the market.
I won't hold my breath though.
A bit later I'll show you guys what I did last night, to get my 7 string Edge to flutter like Brad Gillis' Strat on roids.
SS
Someday, a locking, fulcrum-style, ball bearing, 7 string trem, made in Germany or Japan will hit the market.
I won't hold my breath though.A bit later I'll show you guys what I did last night, to get my 7 string Edge to flutter like Brad Gillis' Strat on roids.
SS
Vairocarnal
...is something.
damigu
stay tuned
Someday, a locking, fulcrum-style, ball bearing, 7 string trem, made in Germany or Japan will hit the market.
A bit later I'll show you guys what I did last night, to get my 7 string Edge to flutter like Brad Gillis' Strat on roids.
SS
fulcrum and ball bearing are mutually exclusive trem designs.
fulcrum style relies on knife edges. (like the classic fender trem, or the floyd).
bearing style relies on, well, bearings.
(like the kahler and the ibanez ZR series)you can't really flutter with a bearing trem, though they do feel and respond more smooth and precise than a fulcrum trem.
i'm a kahler fanboi, myself.
That's a mistaken understanding of the "fulcrum" term. Fulcrum refers to designs such as the Floyd, Fender and ZR in which the whole bridge (including the saddles) pivots up and down to change the pitch (also good for fluttering).
The contrasting design of Kahlers and Steinbergers is the cam design in which the pitch changing mechanism pivots behind the bridge saddles which remain fixed. This design sucks for fluttering because the fixed saddles act like dampers when the strings slide back and forth over them.
The ZR trem is an example of a fulcrum trem which uses ball-bearings.
I'm surprised the original poster didn't gravitate towards the ZR as it fits his description perfectly if you remove the zero position bar (which is designed to be removable) so it floats freely. I'd assume it'd flutter with the best of them in floating mode, but then again if Rich says otherwise I'd believe him.
i've got a ZR7 trem on hand i'm gonna modify to fit the OFR7 sustain block so i can use a Tremel-no on it, i figure it should flutter pretty well then.
Pics or it didn't happen
Man this thread started spiraling downward real quick
well it hasn't happened yet
but it will very soon.
sevenstringj
Banned
damigu
stay tuned
i beg to differ.
to wit, i submit language taken directly from fender's patent #4677891:
"Correspondingly, the two knife edges 13 are in exact alignment with each other, so that the knife edges and V-grooves cooperate to form the pivot axis or fulcrum for the tremolo apparatus."
thus, the word "fulcrum" refers to the mechanism by which the bridge pivots--literally a fulcrum. what you described requires a fulcrum to do (you described lever action), but does not match the definition of what a fulcrum is.
there are other patents for tremolos and tremolo tuning devices that also use the word "fulcrum" in reference to the same thing as fender's patent.
by contrast, the kahler's patent #4457201 never mentions the word "fulcrum" but always refers to it as "camming action" instead.
~~~~~
as for the fluttering, my experience with bearing trems including the ZR (meaning i've tried them and am not merely guessing) is that they are more stable at neutral position than fulcrum trems--they aren't AS sensitive to minute spring/string tension changes, and that's why they:
a/ can handle unison bends better, and
b/ tend not to flutter.
kahler trem's use a cam, the ZR bridge does not, its a bearing based trem that is still a fulcrum tremelo. the patent from fender does not define the term fulcrum, it only defines they way they achieve that fulcrum.
damigu
stay tuned
your last statement is exactly what i'm getting at: the word "fulcrum" already has a definition, and the knife edge pivot matches it (fender used that specific term because its denotation was appropriate). a fulcrum is the device that allows lever action, but said resulting lever action *is not the same* as the fulcrum itself as it can be achieved via other means (such as bearings).
fulcrums and bearings are two completely different mechanical devices to effect similar rotational motion. the ZR doesn't use a fulcrum. as you said, it uses bearings--like a kahler does.
as to the cam, you might be misunderstanding what a cam is if you think it has any bearing (no pun intended) on this discussion. the cam is nothing more than a meants of offsetting the strings' termination point to allow for greater angular changes with smaller whammy bar motions (unlike a bigsby, where the strings terminate at the rotating bar itself and would require much larger whammy arm motions to get a range anywhere near a kahler).
though i do understand the confusion over it: because the ZR *LOOKS* fairly similar to floyd (both from the top and in the spring cavity), it is thought to be functionally similar though improved. but the pivot mechanism is the same as a kahler--bearings instead of a fulcrum.
(and that's exactly why they don't really flutter--even high quality bearings, like those in kahlers and ZRs, have rotational friction that greatly dampens or completely prevents the flutter capability that knife edge pivots have)
You're absolutely right and I stand corrected
Technically a knife-edge pivot is a fulcrum and the ZR uses ball-bearings instead to serve the same pivoting function as a Floyd-type vibrato.
Kudos for correcting my correction
But I will stand by my previous post regarding the functional difference between what is referred to in the industry as "fulcrum" vs. "cam" designs.
Terminology inaccuracies aside (as you have correctly pointed out) there is a strong convention established which refers to both ZR and Floyd type designs as "fulcrum" because their functional behaviour is the same. Kahlers are conventionally referred to as "cam" designs but the meaningful difference in function between "fulcrum" and "cam" is that with Kahlers the pivoting mechanism is separate from the saddles which remain stationary. This has an unfortunate side effect of damping the strings as they move across the saddles.
The "fulcrum" saddles pivot with the strings and achieve much better sustain performance.
Sensitivity to spring tension has no relation to fulcrum vs. ball-bearing mechanism. It is directly caused by the distance that the string ends are attached and pivoting above the rotational axis. If the strings are attached far above the axis then they exert a stronger torque and are more sensitive the counterbalance from the springs. Closer to the axis = less sensitivity.
The Steinberger Trans-Trem cleverly manipulates the distance from the string end to the axis which uniquely allows it to bend chords in tune.
I have to completely disagree with this, especially your connection between ball-bearings and lack of flutter.
The ZR and Floyd are functionally identical if you remove the zero-position system from the ZR (and btw the same zero-position system is now available on some Ibanez Edge fulcrum trems and have the same function.)
Ball-bearings have an extremely low rotational friction which knife-edges have to be in top shape to match. Kahlers have a fluttering bar action which is every bit as good as a Floyd in terms of how much the bar itself flutters when you snap or flick it. Unfortunately the flutter action on Kahlers is almost unusable in terms of sound because the bridge saddles don't move together with the bar like they do on a Floyd. So when the strings are rapidly pulled back and forth across the stationary saddles the saddles act as dampers (similar to palm-muting) which kill the sustain very quickly.
damigu
stay tuned
this is true, unfortunately. but it's like when people refer to a computer as a "hard drive"--just because the masses call it one way doesn't make it correct. plain and simple, the term is being used incorrectly.
low friction is still greater than no friction. a floyd (with good knife edges) has essentially 0 rotational friction. hence the long and clean flutter as the springs/strings fight toward equilibrium. even a tiny bit of additional friction is enough to dampen those vibrations much more quickly.
i don't deny that the saddle/cam setup of a kahler does contribute even more to the flutter killing, though. after all, none of my kahlers get any audible flutter to speak of and the bar doesn't have the flutter action you speak of. they pretty much snap back to neutral with only a few milliseconds of bounce (even if i let go from an extreme pull or dump).
but again, my experience with the ZRs that i've actually used with my own hands is that they get no significant flutter either. in playing them alone there's a little flutter that dies pretty quickly (nowhere near what can be accomplished on a floyd), but i doubt it would be really noticeable in a mix. it sounds more like a fraction-of-a-second mistake than a deliberate flutter effect.
i wouldn't say no relation, but you do raise a valid point regarding the torque required to maintain flutter.
Very interesting discussions 
Now, I rely a lot on parm muting, and because of this have found Floyds to be unuseful. Sure, it could be a matter of technique..
I also simply can't have whammies not returning neatly to zero.
From trying out Ibanez's with ZR 's, the ZR seems to neatly fit my style. I just don't have enough experience with Ibby's to judge potential sustain issues.
This would be for a 26"-26.5" scale mostly for prog/symph metal and prog fusion jazz.
I don't divebomb or pull much, mostly use a whammy to dip/up-glide notes, kinda as an inverse bending technique.
Any comments on ZR's WRT sustain? Tone?
Also, I wonder if it's possible to angle a ZR slightly for a small fan, say half an inch..
Now, I rely a lot on parm muting, and because of this have found Floyds to be unuseful. Sure, it could be a matter of technique..I also simply can't have whammies not returning neatly to zero.
From trying out Ibanez's with ZR 's, the ZR seems to neatly fit my style. I just don't have enough experience with Ibby's to judge potential sustain issues.
This would be for a 26"-26.5" scale mostly for prog/symph metal and prog fusion jazz.
I don't divebomb or pull much, mostly use a whammy to dip/up-glide notes, kinda as an inverse bending technique.
Any comments on ZR's WRT sustain? Tone?
Also, I wonder if it's possible to angle a ZR slightly for a small fan, say half an inch..
