8 string floating tremolos...???

[xwmucradiox]

Once you add two extra strings the tension disparity becomes so dramatic that the action of the trem becomes hindered. You have to drop the trem too the body to get a serious dive on a high string but drop it 15 degrees and all of a sudden your low strings are flopping and clanging around and making a tangled mess. A trem in many ways just isn't going to work well with so many strings.

 

[bostjan]

I've seen trems for acoustic guitars, which hold a hell of a lot more tension than your average electric solidbodies on a much thinner surface.

As an owner of two Kahler-equipped guitars (not eights, though), I can say that Kahlers are nifty, but not as athletic or sleek as the Floyd-style trems.

I think that there is a lot of room for design improvement with trems in general. When I look at the Parker Trem System and think about how it's been around roughly twenty years (and only been "updated" once, AFAIK), it makes me think that there is just not a general mindset in the industry to try anything new with trems, whether it be adding strings or adding functionality.

I think that this thread could go on legitimately for many more years as players continue to desire a trem that has the functionality they want for a price that fits in the average college student's or musician's budget.

 

[xwmucradiox]

I've seen trems for acoustic guitars, which hold a hell of a lot more tension than your average electric solidbodies on a much thinner surface.

As an owner of two Kahler-equipped guitars (not eights, though), I can say that Kahlers are nifty, but not as athletic or sleek as the Floyd-style trems.

I think that there is a lot of room for design improvement with trems in general. When I look at the Parker Trem System and think about how it's been around roughly twenty years (and only been "updated" once, AFAIK), it makes me think that there is just not a general mindset in the industry to try anything new with trems, whether it be adding strings or adding functionality.

I think that this thread could go on legitimately for many more years as players continue to desire a trem that has the functionality they want for a price that fits in the average college student's or musician's budget.

Not talking about the amount of tension. Im talking about the difference in tension changes and physical trem movement required to drop relative amounts of pitch. That is going to change dramatically from a low F# to a high E. I think there was a thread somewhere around here where a guy mentioned that he couldn't get a real dive bomb on his kahler 8 because the other 7 strings became a floppy noisy mess before his high E dropped an octave.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Isn't Dan over at Oni working on a fanned/ERG trem system?

 

[bostjan]

Not talking about the amount of tension. Im talking about the difference in tension changes and physical trem movement required to drop relative amounts of pitch. That is going to change dramatically from a low F# to a high E. I think there was a thread somewhere around here where a guy mentioned that he couldn't get a real dive bomb on his kahler 8 because the other 7 strings became a floppy noisy mess before his high E dropped an octave.

Wait, his high e was the problem? That should have nothing to do with the extra string.

 

[Eric Christian]

Once you add two extra strings the tension disparity becomes so dramatic that the action of the trem becomes hindered. You have to drop the trem too the body to get a serious dive on a high string but drop it 15 degrees and all of a sudden your low strings are flopping and clanging around and making a tangled mess. A trem in many ways just isn't going to work well with so many strings.

I'm not doing any serious dives so yeah, my 7 string with a Floyd does fine, I can't imagine adding one more string making a dramatic difference for the way I play. I've always enjoyed having a tremolo to add accents to my playing so thats what I buy.

 

[Hollowway]

Not talking about the amount of tension. Im talking about the difference in tension changes and physical trem movement required to drop relative amounts of pitch. That is going to change dramatically from a low F# to a high E. I think there was a thread somewhere around here where a guy mentioned that he couldn't get a real dive bomb on his kahler 8 because the other 7 strings became a floppy noisy mess before his high E dropped an octave.

Yeah, that was me. It's not necessarily a string tension differential, though. It's true that my F# (8th) string has less tension than my high E, but even when I equalize the tension the problem persists. The issue is pretty much a design flaw with the Kahlers (if you want to call it that) which really only shows up as the string gauges get thick. i.e. it's not a particular issue on a 6 string guitar. The issue is that the way the string comes out of the ball claw and over the cam means that the core of a thinner string is going to have a much straighter shot toward the nut than the thicker string. So the thinner string pretty much only drops in pitch due to a shortening of the string length (which isn't much due to the nature of the trem) in the horizontal vector. But the thicker string is going to drop in pitch due to the same shortening AND a vertical change, as the core (center) of the string no longer has to go up and over the cam, and that extra vertical vector gets turned into more string slack.

So yeah, the more low strings, and thicker they are, the less effective a Kahler is. After all I could do on the Kahler I can only get the high E to drop 1.5 steps, even with the bar all the way to the body. The F# goes slack way before that, though.

Fundamentally, having a tapered cam, or and increased cam effect on the high strings, could solve that.

And knife edge trems do not have that problem, as the thickness of the string has much less to do with the drop. Or at least so I suspect, since I have no real way of trying an 8 string Floyd. It is possible, though, that because of the intonation point on the 8th string is substantially farther back on the Floyd, which introduces it's own vertical component, the 8th string would go slack much more quickly on that as well.

There is definitely a design for a trem that would work ideally on 8 string guitars. But, like everything else with 8 strings, there are 6.5 billion people in the world, and 60 of them play 8 strings, and no one is going to do R&D for that number!

 

[vansinn]

Yeah, that was me. It's not necessarily a string tension differential, though. It's true that my F# (8th) string has less tension than my high E, but even when I equalize the tension the problem persists. The issue is pretty much a design flaw with the Kahlers (if you want to call it that) which really only shows up as the string gauges get thick. i.e. it's not a particular issue on a 6 string guitar. The issue is that the way the string comes out of the ball claw and over the cam means that the core of a thinner string is going to have a much straighter shot toward the nut than the thicker string. So the thinner string pretty much only drops in pitch due to a shortening of the string length (which isn't much due to the nature of the trem) in the horizontal vector. But the thicker string is going to drop in pitch due to the same shortening AND a vertical change, as the core (center) of the string no longer has to go up and over the cam, and that extra vertical vector gets turned into more string slack.

So yeah, the more low strings, and thicker they are, the less effective a Kahler is. After all I could do on the Kahler I can only get the high E to drop 1.5 steps, even with the bar all the way to the body. The F# goes slack way before that, though.

Fundamentally, having a tapered cam, or and increased cam effect on the high strings, could solve that.

Yup, we had this discussion in http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/82136-kahler-pro-2228k-stability.html (from about post #9)
Not sure we ever reached a definite conclusion..
Due to a mix of financials and then too much workload at a new job, I put eight-stringers on hold, though conceptually kept working on my own bridge desighn - which of course still haven't seen the dawn of day, hehe

There is definitely a design for a trem that would work ideally on 8 string guitars. But, like everything else with 8 strings, there are 6.5 billion people in the world, and 60 of them play 8 strings, and no one is going to do R&D for that number!

Or rather: Out of the 6.5 billion, 100 play 8 strings, five got started on the R&D, but one bailed out due to financials, one due to technical difficulties, one actually made it, but way too early for any viable market, and the remaining two are keeping their cards close because the know they will be the only competition in this small emerging market of 25 worldwide eight-string whammy players

 

[SplinteredSoul]

Probably doesn't shed any further light on the matter, but this is what Floyd Rose said to me, when I enquired as to whether or not they had any plans to make a mass manufactured 8-string floyd:


Sorry Man, but we do not.. We have talked about it.. but currently there are several other projects in front of it.. this will be looked at again in the beginning of 2011
Sorry
Andy

Andrew Papiccio
Floyd Rose Marketing

 

[Hollowway]

Probably doesn't shed any further light on the matter, but this is what Floyd Rose said to me, when I enquired as to whether or not they had any plans to make a mass manufactured 8-string floyd:


Sorry Man, but we do not.. We have talked about it.. but currently there are several other projects in front of it.. this will be looked at again in the beginning of 2011
Sorry
Andy

Andrew Papiccio
Floyd Rose Marketing

Interesting. Although the cynical part of me says that a marketing person saying that they will be looking at possibly doing it after 2011 is akin to a normal person saying they'll do it a week from never, so....

 

[vansinn]

^ hehe, that is indeed cynical
Maybe it's simply that FL does acknowledge this 8-string whammy market but see it as it it, a very early barely emerging market, and really do have plans for slowly getting involved early next year..

Looking at various designs, it seems to me most aren't instantaneously upgradeable to 8(+) strings, but will require trials and likely some workarounds/reingeneering, the exception being the Kahler design, which turned out to be hardly much more than making it wider (omitting the few reported issues with the fanned 9 version).

 

[Hollowway]

^ hehe, that is indeed cynical
Maybe it's simply that FL does acknowledge this 8-string whammy market but see it as it it, a very early barely emerging market, and really do have plans for slowly getting involved early next year..

Looking at various designs, it seems to me most aren't instantaneously upgradeable to 8(+) strings, but will require trials and likely some workarounds/reingeneering, the exception being the Kahler design, which turned out to be hardly much more than making it wider (omitting the few reported issues with the fanned 9 version).

Yeah, I think you're right about that. Still, I have the feeling that if the Kahler were reengineered it could deal better with the pitch drop differential between the highest and lowest strings. And if the Mr. Rose does his homework, the Floyd could be the runaway winner by keeping the tension drops close.