9 String Tuning

[Gizmo Skatoon]

What do you guys find more attractive:

1)Standard (ebgdaEBf#c#)
2)Drop E w/ B below (ebgdaEBEB)
3) 5 string Bass Hybrid (ebgdaDAEB)

or something else entirely?

I'm troubled because on an 8 string drop E makes a lot of sense to me, but it's a bit of a self contained system, and I'm not sure it brings the same value to the table on a 9 string.

Any experience or insight? I added a poll

 

[EverDream]

4) Standard w/ B below (ebgdaEBF#B)

or you can be like me and tune to Drop G# (c#g#ebf#C#G#D#G#) lol

 

[bostjan]

What's the scale length?

Personally, I'd much prefer a high A (low to high: F#1 B1 E2 A2 D3 G3 B3 E4 A4 or drop E: E1 B1 E2 A2 D3 G3 B3 E4 A4), because anything lower than E1 on a not-super-long-scale guitar, to me, sounds like muck. The problem is that the A4 is too high for guitars longer than 25", so, it depends on scale length.

If your high side is longer than 25", but less than 27", I'd drop everything down a whole step, so that the high string is a G4. >27", and I'd drop even lower. If the low side is 25" or less, then really, to me, you have to spend a lot of time to play with string gauges a lot to find something that sounds and feels tight enough without sounding dull and clunky if you tune below G1. If you can get the low side up to 27", F#1 sounds a hell of a lot better to me, but then it's too long for the high A, and probably not long enough to get a decent sound out of C#1.

Once you get down to >32" scale lengths, low tunings sound great, but you're going to start pushing the limits of the high E4, especially if you do a lot of bends or any amount of crazy >full step bends.

I think with nine strings or more, you really need to consider the scale length as sort of defining your tuning, unless you shorten the intervals between strings or something, like Russian folk guitars. A multiscale certainly gives a little more flexibility, but still doesn't completely solve the issue.

Personally, I've always considered 9 strings to be pretty much the limit of what straight scale guitars can handle without special strings or whatnot. Anything more than that and you're into territory where multiscale really becomes a necessity in design. I'm sure many will disagree, but I'm only offering my opinion on what I think sounds good enough for regular use.

 

[Winspear]

Perfect 4ths (trebles tuned up to be uniform e.g. EADGCF).
I like how all the intervals become consistent on the fretboard in 4ths. Cutting chord shapes to learn down to a third due to repeated patterns. I feel it makes even more sense on ERGs which are less focused around being able to do barre chords on the 6 string part etc. (which is the only advantage of standard over 4ths really).
Pitch depending entirely on scale length, though I'd prefer either BEADGCFBbEb or EADGCFBbEbAb. That 8 string+ added treble style tuning is my current 9 string with a fanned scale 29.25-24.75, allowing a clear tight low E and a safe high Ab.
I like to stick to 'step down from standard' style so low B on a 9, E on an 8, A on a 7 etc. which is why I mentioned B standard (with perfect 4ths adjustment) for a 'regular' 9 string tuning rather than added treble. I'd like one but wont do it until I get a 32-29 scale or similar.
Bostjans post says it all really!
If I was stuck with one of the commercial 28" 9 strings for example I'd tune it to a reduced range minor thirds tuning or something for some fun and different voicings. I wouldn't be happy with it in standard because the lowest I'll take 28" is E and 28" can't reach a high Ab like my existing guitar. Even not doing p4ths it wont reach a high G. Forced to use it in standard I'd tune it up to D with a high F. 30" straight scale I'd probably keep in C# standard as it's a bit more forgiving than low B and juuuust short enough for a safe high E without bending, though I'm too stuck in p4ths now so C-high E I guess

 

[EverDream]

I am so grateful that to my brain pitches below E1 both sound and feel good to me with proper Kalium guitar string gauges on my 28.625" straight scale, it makes things so much easier on me! lol

I know you guys can't help how you perceive things, I'm not trying to say I'm better or anything so don't take it wrong, but just that, man oh man I am just glad my brain was unusually easy to please in regards to the pitch and scale length relation. I mean I think I'm the only one on this forum who's brain likes how it sounds below E1 on 28.625" straight scale!

Keep in mind, I don't play live (I'm a recording musician only), I mainly/only play rhythm guitar, I like to play slow tempo, I don't pick super aggressively or hard, I like a nice thick chunky and ballsy tone like the 80s and 90s rather than the 00s and 10s razor sharp knife like tone that is used in most metal today that I come across. Metallica's Master of Puppets album has my ideal guitar tone really (also like the self titled "Black" album's tone too). Also love the Norwegian Native Art album guitar tone by Einherjer (actually that album has my ideal bass guitar and drum sound as well, lol). Also loved the guitar tone on Korn's Follow The Leader and Issues albums. Sevendust self titled debut album guitar tone comes to mind also. John Petrucci's tone on Awake and on Metropolis Pt. 2 through Octavarium (especially on Train Of Thought) is also one of my favorites. Oh and the guitar tone on that Elements Of Persuasion James LaBrie solo album.

Plus I use the lowest strings very selectively and don't just play in that range the whole time. All these things might factor into why I'm ok with how the notes below E1 sound on a 28.625" scale length. I've found that the longer the scale length, the less punchy the palm mutes sound to me, and I have a 30" scale baritone that the palm mutes are just punchy enough to make work if I really place my palm in exactly the right position. Meanwhile on my 25.5" guitar hardly any effort required to make the palm mutes sound punchy as hell, just place palm lightly in the general area (doesn't have to be exact), and pick with normal/average picking force, and super punchy! But that's because of the tone I'm going for. On the razor sharp tone of nowadays, it's way easier to make the palm mutes have the correct punch due to it having less bass pre-distortion, but I just don't like that tone, so that doesn't help me, lol. I tried palm muting on my 34" bass and it really didn't have much punch at all no matter how I placed my palm or picked unless I really cranked the distortion to massive levels. And yes palm muting is a big part of my playing style, so it definitely is a deciding factor for me.

But yeah I liked how the Kalium .118 both sounded and felt at G#0 on my 28.625" Agile 8-string, and I am very grateful that I did now that I notice how uncommon the way I perceive it is among other people on here!

 

[bostjan]

pitches below E1

Any clips? G#0 is quite a bit below E1. It's about the limit of how low I'll tune a 35" bass.

Obviously, any tone can be useful in the right circumstances. What I do with a guitar isn't what other people do with their guitars, so it's all very necessarily biased when I opine about what I like and don't like.

 

[EverDream]

I did make a recording of a 2 octave descending G# minor run from G#2 to G#0 that I simultaneously recorded to my digital camera (although quality isn't that great, and I still need to create a youtube channel and upload it there before I can embed it anywhere, lol). I will post the video here when I do get around to that though so you can see and hear.

And yeah you are exactly right, I create riffs that utilize the string in a way where it sounds good, that's the whole fun of having these super low notes to me, making it work, I love the challenge, the lower the note, the greater the challenge! lol Obviously the first hurdle is getting a sound and feel I like, but I have that now, so now I just need to get good riffs made for it, but that will be fun. I'm telling you though... the .118 that I have on... didn't have much spare room when I put it through the guitar body, I think the hole is drilled to .125, so the thickest string I could probably get on would be a .124 Kalium and I'd probably have to jerk it through with pliers or something it'd be such a tight fit, so I'm pretty much at my limit based on the type bridge being string through body. Actually I only have 1 instrument that has a top loading bridge and it's my Brice 37" Bass guitar, so no regular guitars with top loading, so that's a bummer, and I won't be able to afford any new instruments for a long time.

Still I might try the .124 on the next set just to see if it fits through the body, and if it does I'll see how that one sounds at G#0 and also try G0 (since I like the .118 at G#0 and the .124 is a little thicker).

 

[Masoo2]

I dig standard and Drop B but Drop A/Drop D low A is incredibly fun

 

[Gizmo Skatoon]

Very cool guys, I hope more people continue to chime in and vote.

I recognize some of you from my thread about making a bridge with fanned saddles, again very cool to hear from you guys.

@Winspear I'm also attracted to the idea of all 4ths. It's undeniable that consistent tuning like that is better for scale knowledge. I mean you only need to know 3 shapes for any scale and you're done. For improvising lead lines all 4ths seems amazing. Which is very attractive to me because I like jazz and improv. But what about chords?

Having inconsistent intervals in the tuning creates idiosyncrasies, and unique opportunities for different string sets. For example the relationships between the lower and higher strings in standard tuning are very useful intervals. From the 5th to 2nd string is an intervalic 9th, or 6th 2nd strings is a perfect 5th. Or even think about the cool voicings that are so much easier in drop D, like a sus2. Getting those same intervals now requires an extra finger, which takes away from the opportunities on those extra strings in an ERG.

Do you know of any good resources for chord voicings in all 4ths? Maybe a book, or a website dedicated to the topic.

I think one big advantage guitar has, over let's say a piano, is how easy changing keys, or even chords is. A lot if not all strings along one fret fit nicely within a key, minor keys rooted on the 6th string for example. Then by moving to a new fret you get a new key center or root note. I think there is a huge advantage in having all the vertical intervals be key specific stable ones, because that lends itself to how the guitar is played.

However, if you continue adding strings in standard tuning, you get closer and closer to all 4ths, losing that transpositional advantage, but gaining others related to scales and consistent intervals in general. So if you're going to have 7/8 intervals be 4ths, why not go all the way and be consistent, right?

@bostjan Since I'm designing guitars, the scale length is whatever I want it to be! I let the desired tuning/human body physical limitations define scale length, and build around that, and of course, multiscale Personally I find 18.5 lbs of tension perfect for strings I ride or root on, <16lbs for the strings I'd like to bend. Less than 18.5 gives me too much settle for how I pick, and loses too much clarity, but more than 18.5 is unnecessary tension for my left hand to deal with. Imagine lifting 60lbs with just your fingers. That's what fretting just 3 strings is like at 20lbs. So even just a few pounds over the minimum tension required adds up to PAIN and difficulty playing lmao. So for example a 0.100 bass string on 28.54" (725mm) tuned to C#0 gets me that ~18.5lbs.

So I like 26-28.54 because any longer than that, or much more significantly fanned is difficult for me to play. I just can't play the chord voicings I want to hear on a bass scale length. Do you have any recommendations or wisdom regarding tuning/voicings/gauges/scale? Or anything at all lmao.

And adding another treble string would be cool too. I actually think that would be awesome. I don't think I'd like to give up that 9th low string though, just because I want to hear low/mid bass frequencies at every fret. By the time I get to the 7th fret, that low 9th string is already higher than the open 8th string. I think on a 10 string an additional treble would the coolest, but that might be pushing the limits of what my hands can reach comfortably. At that point, because of the neck width, blues style thumb over is out the window. Do you think a 10 string would be cool?

@EverDream Thanks for your reply man! I'd really like to hear that clip you're talking about. Making a youtube channel takes 30 seconds, don't loaft! And jesus G#0 is crazy low. That's lower than the lowest note on a piano haha. And just a few hz higher than the lower limit of human perception. I'd bet you feel that in your chest more than you hear it. Which is really cool in its own right. I think everyone would like to hear that clip. What do you like to do with a string that low? How do you approach it?

@Masoo2 Damn dude double drop A is basically as low as EverDream's G#. How do you like using that string? What's your approach?

I hope more people jump in on the conversation! I'd like to build some guitars that many of you would consider the perfect guitar. The community here is so progressive and the world would be a better place if more people listened to you.

 

[Winspear]

Cool conversation here!

I'm actually writing my own book on p4ths. I say that - I'm incredibly busy with my business and haven't touched it for 2 years sadly. But there is some content about chords so far, only basic stuff. I've essentially dedicated the first pages to analysing p4ths vs standard, before forgetting about standard for the rest of the book.

As far as scales go, some positions seem worse too, as 4 fret shapes become 5 fret shapes as position shifts are needed. But on a closer look, the same is true in reverse. Some of the non ideal scales or positions in standard tuning, become nice 4 fret shapes in p4ths. Looking carefully, it seems you gain exactly as much as you lose - that's it, it's just different. Not better or worse to play, just easier to remember. Personally I found it nice to simply learn one octave and move it around utilizing slides. For example 5-7-8 , 5-7-8, 5 (slide) 7. Repeat from the 7 as 7 9 10, etc.. Of course learning the box shapes is still an option and if you already know them, it doesn't take much work to visualize moving the trebles down a fret and seeing which positions become worse and which become better.

I feel kind of the same about chords. You are right that the vertical alignment in standard is useful, which is why it fits barre chords so well. But I've put a focus on just learning intervals all over the instrument and coming up with my own chord shapes. Yes some existing barres potentially with added notes on top will no longer work, but I feel the 4 string barre (or 5 string with a 5th on the bottom) is more than enough as far as barres go. I don't personally care for adding a ton of octaves and 5ths (afterall, typical barrechords are just big powerchords with a single added 3rd). As for extensions, indeed they change, but, just like any tuning, it's all about embracing what it allows and forgetting what it does not. There are plenty of instances in standard tuning where it would be nice to be able to do this and that, but it isn't possible. Many of those examples, p4ths enables.
In summary, I'd just view it as this: Every tuning gives us access to a bunch of notes under our fingers across 4 frets and across the strings. Every tuning is bound to contain many unique voicings that suit the tunings fingerings. Some will be possible, others wont. 4ths tuning is no different - but we have the advantage of complete uniformity (and familiarity, aside from just the G-B string transition).

One resource from the book that is ready for sharing, is this chart I put together.

It has so many strings so that you can just glance at it whilst playing, and hopefully be able to see enough strings in either direction to read where you want to go. And repeat this process again with movements without running out of strings. Hope that makes sense. Given 4ths is entirely ambiguous I thought this made more sense rather than highlighting actual frets and string numbers. It's just a chart of repeating patterns that you can use to navigate as you go, and to construct chords. Which is why I'm posting it.

You can take from the chart some simple examples based on the 4 string barre shape.
(tablature low to high) 57755 gives you a minor addb13 chord. More specific than standard tunings 5th on top of course - but a useful voicing. 5779 is there if you are set on a 5th on top. A finger can be used on top to easily grab a 7, b7. You've got the 13th directly above the major 3rd.
And that's just for barre voicings. 4ths allows you to remember this interval map much easier, and use it to create your own shapes. Being able to move barre chords around is nice, but in detailed chord/melody writing with voice leading, I find myself coming across and utilizing a lot more 'random' chord shapes such as 5466 (maj7), 7546 (madd9) etc. I like how 4ths allows you to learn and move such shapes easier.

Wall of text..Sorry

 

[EverDream]

@EverDream Thanks for your reply man! I'd really like to hear that clip you're talking about. Making a youtube channel takes 30 seconds, don't loaft! And jesus G#0 is crazy low. That's lower than the lowest note on a piano haha. And just a few hz higher than the lower limit of human perception. I'd bet you feel that in your chest more than you hear it. Which is really cool in its own right. I think everyone would like to hear that clip. What do you like to do with a string that low? How do you approach it?

Yeah I didn't know how interested people would be in the video, but now that I received your interest I'll prioritize it more. I know to most people G#0 is crazy low, but to me it's just "low" because I've been messing with pitches that low in some way or another for quite a while now in my practices, so it doesn't really seem so extreme to me because of how much exposure I've had to it, lol. Yes it's lower than the lowest note on a typical 88 key grand piano, but just 1 note lower, lol. And don't forget Bosendorfer actually makes 2 pianos that go lower than that even. They have a 92 key piano that goes down to F0, and a 97 key piano that goes down to C0. And then of course you have pipe organs, which, with a 32 foot long pipe, produce C0, and there is even a couple 64 foot pipe's in the world that go down to C-1 (8.176 hz), lol.

About the low limit of human perception... that varies from person to person, and with my headphones that are flat down to 5 hz I can hear well below 20 hz before it sounds silent, in fact I have to drop the sine wave frequency to 12 hz before I don't hear anything anymore, and also that doesn't even matter because it's the overtones which make up the pitch mainly. The harmonic spacing is what determines how low or high the note sounds, so at G#0 there is a harmonic around every 26 hz, so the pitches that will be present to the ear when a G#0 note is played is 26, 52, 78, 104, 130, 156, 182, 208, 234, 260, etc. and then distortion will boost these even more, and the human brain automatically perceives the note as being as low as how far spaced apart each harmonic is, so it pereceives it as 26 hz since each harmonic is 26 hz apart from each other. Which harmonics are louder actually just changes the tone, but the brain still perceives the same pitch. That being said, some tones sound more pleasing, and definitely if one harmonic is too loud, it won't really sound good, that's why not just any settings will work for notes these low because they can make some harmonics stand out too much, and then it doesn't really sound balanced, but more resonant. That's why so many people are thinking notes this low sound like garbage, because it's very likely that they do, until you've come up with the right settings to make them sound good, but that's part of the reason why I love it, I love the challenge of making it work and sound good.

I do feel a little something against my chest, but it's not that strong because it's not that much tension at G#0 with a .118 string on a 28.625" scale. Now if I played that same note with a .150 on my 37" scale bass, then I'd definitely feel it strongly... but then it would sound really bassy and have way less harmonics too, which is fine for a bass guitar tone, but this is guitar I am playing, not bass, so I want a thinner string so that it sounds like a really low guitar note, and not a really low bass guitar note, lol. But yeah, you're right, feeling those vibrations is definitely really cool on it's own, I'm with you there!

With a string that low, what I like to do is use it to accent certain notes in a riff that would sound cooler or heavier if it was in that octave, and then another use is to double a riff on the lower octave instead of using an octave pedal (like Petrucci has done with the Silhouette Bass on songs like Blind Faith, Misunderstood, and on his solo album Animate-Inanimate). This is nice because you could even double a power chord riff an octave lower, but with just single notes, where with an octave pedal it would double the whole chord and that'd sound messy having a 5th an octave lower too. Also I like to use it as a drone or pedal note when doing something in the key of G# in the typical range. Using it as a dark sounding sustained ambient drone note with huge reverb settings is another thing that I would use it for. I bet that would sound awesome played with a bow, but I don't have one, lol. Then of course I can play it like a bass along with songs I like and do the bassline if I don't feel like getting my bass guitar, or playing on a longer scale with thicker and tighter strings.

Well I'll get to putting that video up as soon as I can now that I know you're interested (and other people as you say), but right now there's some stuff I have to take care of. But I won't forget, it's on my mind, I love this stuff, so it's definitely on my mind, I assure you that!

 

[Gizmo Skatoon]

@Winspear Dude that chart is awesome! That's exactly how I would want a chart listing intervals. Just a continuous sea, allowing me to make my own decisions. Great tool man, thank you for sharing. And I'm happy your business is going well, you'll have to give us some advice on running a business sometime!

My ears also agree with yours on adding octaves and fifths. Never cared for it. I'm much more interested in new extensions, 7s, 9s 11s, 13s. All 4ths makes a lot of sense to me. I think all that's left is to experiment with all 4ths a bit more, to see how it affects my phrasing. Logic > idiosyncrasies, or idiosyncrasies > logic. Conveniently, the tension is low enough that tuning in standard or all 4ths can be achieved with the same string gauges, for me at least.

There's a guy on youtube by the name of "allfifthstuning", as you can imagine he tunes in ascending 5ths. With his tuning system, he's got the range of an 8 string on his 6 string. Pretty cool! He also made a pdf for scales, arpeggios and chord charts. I'll leave links to both, and if you have a spare guitar... well you know, it would be sick.

Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClX5cJOo4p6bhSkBUu_J0eQ/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0

Pdf: https://sourceforge.net/p/the-quintar-project/code/ci/master/tree/SaC/

Thank you again for the chart. I hope you pursue the book through to the end. I'd like a copy .

@EverDream haha! dude you know your stuff. I'm a neuroscience student and we had to learn about that in school. Pretty incredible. It's like your brain is thinking for you lmfao. This is why ss.org is awesome. I guarantee most musicians don't know any of what you just said, and yet here you are.

I do sincerely hope the things you're taking care of go well for you, and you get around to posting a video.

Quick question for you @EverDream, how are the kalium strings? They seem sick because they make thick gauge guitar strings, not bass strings. Bass strings can sound dull compared to guitar strings through the same tone. I'm thinking 0.009 - 0.098 would suit me nicely for C# standard/ C# all fourths. Any wisdom/advice regarding kalium? Are they good people?

 

[Winspear]

Thanks for the kind words! I'm glad you like the formatting idea of the chart!
5ths seems great fun. I definitely want to try it when I get it properly set up. I don't like how it forces 4 note per string scale runs, but it could promote quite unique lead lines and is obviously fantastic for wide voiced chords.
Can't remember if I mentioned above but if you want to try something really whacky, 3rds tuning on a 9 string (range of a 6 string!) is amazing for piano style close voicings. I want to string properly for minor 3rds myself, though major 3rds is less extreme of course. Minor 3rds achieves reversal of chord shapes, for example those backwards triad shapes become barre/tritone/powerchord forward style shapes instead.

I have a lot of experience with Kalium myself. They are fantastic for reducing the short scale+thick gauge negative tonal effect. In other words, they allow a given scale length to tune lower with good tone. They allow a larger gauge on a scale length before it starts to sound bad. And they feel really lively - they are made with greater flexibility which helps them vibrate better. I guess this is how they reduce the large gauge negative tonal effects. But on the other hand, whilst more flexible and potentially feeling a tad looser, they are technically slightly heavier and tighter. So you get the liveliness of a smaller gauge without the negative noise and pitch fluctuations.
Their bass and guitar strings are actually the same in construction. Quite unusual. So are Elixirs. Both these brands you can interchange guitar and bass strings without negative effects. Just ball end size. Other brands bass strings are made to run at higher tension and provide more fundamental tone, indeed.
Now sadly, I've heard a lot about Kalium having poor customer service and slow delivery recently. I like them enough and had enough good experiences with them to still recommend them, but that needs to be warned. I haven't ordered from the myself in 3 years now as I had a good stock, don't play much, and decided to try Stringjoy more recently.
Stringjoy are really good for custom gauge sets but they don't go quite that heavy and aren't unique. Pretty similar to D'addario I find.
I don't have suggestions other than Kalium for your desired string set. Except a .100 Elixir bass string if a bass ball end or a modded string is an option. Maybe shoot Labella an email, I know they make custom stuff.

 

[lewis]

do you guys play a 9 string in a conventional way, or do you do like double tap stuff?

I really wanted 1 massive instrument just for double tap work but I just figured I could use my 8 string for this anyway.

would love to try a 9 or 10 string though just for this style in particular.

 

[Slunk Dragon]

Personally, if I ever get a 9, I'll tune it CEAEADGBE, as it would just be easier for my tiny mind to process.

Lots of good shit in this thread though, holy cow!

 

[Dayn]

Apart from standard tuning with the low B, F# and C#, there are two tunings that I really want to try.

The first is standard 6-string tuning, but with a low A, C#, and a high G. The A/C# is used in some Animals As Leaders songs which I picked up. I enjoy the 5th interval with the A, and the minor 6th with the C#. Something I've always toyed with is a minor third above the top string, so a G on top satisfies that. Though that'd be best for a multiscale instrument. For more traditional playing. I've done it on an 8-string, but without the high G. I've done the high G separately, but at the time I was having trouble adjusting to it so didn't bother.

The second is just an open tuning ripped from Rob Scallon: Fmaj9, or from high to low, ECGCAFCFC. Or tune it down a halfstep for Emaj9. For slap and touchstyle. I've tried the 8-string version without the lowest note and it's very fun to be able to play so many chord tones as open strings. The top three strings are a major chord as well, so if you play it open, you have your bottom six strings playing F major with the fifth, C, as the bass note, with its own little dominant chord C major on the top three strings. It really pulls back to F, this tuning.

 

[ohmanthisiscool]

I tune almost drop E its low to High (C,E,B,E,a,d,g,b,e) I use the lowest note to have that tension building feeling against the E and B

 

[CollinG96]

I have my 9 string tuned down 2 steps, so A, D, G, and then c standard for the rest.

 

[ElRay]

Don't have a 9, but my first shot would have to be all M3rds: AbCEAbCEAbCE (long scale) or CEAbCEAbCEAb (short scale) -- Three octaves in one position, dense piano-like chords, etc.

The down-side that that M3rds isn't great for Me-Myself-and-I playing. It also didn't work well when my Daughter was starting lessons and Dad's 7-string was turned very differently than her Classical. It might be time to go back, especially if we're going to be playing where one person can take melody and the other rhythm.

I've been trying to figure-out a good R-5-8/R-4-8 combo for the bass strings and M3rds for the treble, but that basically defeats the point of any regular tuning and haven't come-up with anything that wows me enough to make the jump to a 9-string.

 

[GunpointMetal]

Low to High - A, E, A, E, A, D, G, B, E
Basically a seven string in drop A with octave-below redundancies on the 8th and 9th strings.
It's entirely too low, and that's just the way I like it.