ABC's take on Atheism

[Konfyouzd]

People who prematurely judge you based on sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. generally aren't worth your time anyway...

Not that either side was right, but the this Kagan character knew what he was getting into in taking that interview I'm sure. It's like Obama doing an interview on Fox News...

 

[Skyblue]

What religion if not that? People are taught to follow rules written by someone they have never met, and are also taught to accept that everything is the doing of their god, and that there's some reason behind it all.

Whoops, didn't pay attention to what I was writing. what I meant to say is, It's not belief in god that I dislike, but the blind following of rules and no self thinking.

For example, about a year ago, on a friday night, a small child from a religious family here in israel fell from a balcony on the 3rd floor of the building. she was badly injured of course, probably close to death. paramedics wanted to rush her to the closest hospital, but her mother refused. the reason? she insisted she has to ask the Rabbi if it's ok that the baby will be in a car (In Judaism it is not allowed to "work" on saturdays- which means sunset on friday before to sunset on saturday. work includes driving, and also other stuff like turning the electricity on. I know, makes perfect sense). luckily, the rabbi was contacted and he said it's ok, and the girl survived. but this kind of thickness, and blindly obeying... I just hate that.
I've met people who believe on god and had no problem with me not believing.

 

[Konfyouzd]

Whoops, didn't pay attention to what I was writing. what I meant to say is, It's not belief in god that I dislike, but the blind following of rules and no self thinking.

For example, about a year ago, on a friday night, a small child from a religious family here in israel fell from a balcony on the 3rd floor of the building. she was badly injured of course, probably close to death. paramedics wanted to rush her to the closest hospital, but her mother refused. the reason? she insisted she has to ask the Rabbi if it's ok that the baby will be in a car (In Judaism it is not allowed to "work" on saturdays- which means sunset on friday before to sunset on saturday. work includes driving, and also other stuff like turning the electricity on. I know, makes perfect sense). luckily, the rabbi was contacted and he said it's ok, and the girl survived. but this kind of thickness, and blindly obeying... I just hate that.
I've met people who believe on god and had no problem with me not believing.

If ppl want to blindly follow something then they're free to do so... It's when they try to change my mind about what it is that *I* do that I have a problem...

 

[Razorgrin]

Since the statement I'm about to address has been made early in this thread, and I see it frequently, I think I will address it now.
Atheism is NOT a religion. It is the lack of a belief in god(s). If atheism is a religion then not-guitar is an instrument, or not reading being a hobby. It's not even a matter of "I believe fervently that no gods exist!" but rather "With the evidence (or lack thereof) presented, I see no reason to believe in god, though I am more than happy to be convinced otherwise".
Thank you.

No, thank you.

 

[Konfyouzd]

Since the statement I'm about to address has been made early in this thread, and I see it frequently, I think I will address it now.
Atheism is NOT a religion. It is the lack of a belief in god(s). If atheism is a religion then not-guitar is an instrument, or not reading being a hobby. It's not even a matter of "I believe fervently that no gods exist!" but rather "With the evidence (or lack thereof) presented, I see no reason to believe in god, though I am more than happy to be convinced otherwise".
Thank you.

With all due respect, what differentiates this from agnosticism?

 

[theperfectcell6]

Agnostics don't believe in no god, or a god. They are neither theists, or atheists. They are basically supported by the fact that it is impossible to prove either, or it is just irrelevant.

 

[Konfyouzd]

Agnostics don't believe in no god, or a god. They are neither theists, or atheists. They are basically supported by the fact that it is impossible to prove either, or it is just irrelevant.

Ahh I see. Brendan's explanation of an atheist is what I've always been told was agnosticism. But that definitely makes sense. Thanks

 

[Brendan G]

With all due respect, what differentiates this from agnosticism?

I was anticipating this question and I'm glad it was asked by someone who presented as respectfully as yourself.
Agnostic is most commonly used in it's correct sense as a qualifier to theism or atheism. For example an agnostic atheist doesn't believe in god(s) but does not claim to know this for a fact or it may be impossible to know for a fact. An Agnostic theist believes in god(s) but does not claim to know and it may be impossible to know for certain. The opposite of agnostic is gnostic a gnostic theist or gnostic atheist claims to know god(s) exist(s) or god(s) don't exist(s) respectively.
To answer your question more clearly, gnosticism/agnosticism pertain to knowledge or the ability to know and they do not declare an opinion about god without the qualifiers of theist or atheist.
If I were to call myself an agnostic without those qualifiers it would essentially mean that I don't know if gods exist and it is impossible to know for certain.
I hope this answered your question in full and clearly.

EDIT: theperfectcell6's post is a more concise explanation.

 

[Konfyouzd]

yea that's actually far more in depth than i thought it would be.

i'm asking questions basically to find out what i am based on the accepted definitions just to keep everyone else from freaking out in situations when i'm more or less "forced" to self identify (although knowing what you are doesn't necessarily keep others from freaking out ).

 

[Nights_Blood]

Ahh I see. Brendan's explanation of an atheist is what I've always been told was agnosticism. But that definitely makes sense. Thanks

Well he did kind of mix it up. perfectcell did sort out the Konfyouzion though

Atheism is NOT a religion. It is the lack of a belief in god(s). If atheism is a religion then not-guitar is an instrument, or not reading being a hobby. It's not even a matter of "I believe fervently that no gods exist!" but rather "With the evidence (or lack thereof) presented, I see no reason to believe in god, though I am more than happy to be convinced otherwise".
Thank you.

No. That is agnosticism. Atheism is very specifically the rejection of the existence of gods, which means that they are NOT open to being convinced otherwise. So in a sense, atheism DOES resemble religion, even if it is by definition, an anti-religion.

Which is precisely why I am agnostic. Atheists will ridicule any form of deity worship, but I fail to see how one can just say that there is absolutely no form of higher power and leave it at that. Personally, I think there's way too much unexplainable shit that happens to be sure one way or the other. I mean...fucking quasars are INSANE man.

Whoops, didn't pay attention to what I was writing. what I meant to say is, It's not belief in god that I dislike, but the blind following of rules and no self thinking.

For example, about a year ago, on a friday night, a small child from a religious family here in israel fell from a balcony on the 3rd floor of the building. she was badly injured of course, probably close to death. paramedics wanted to rush her to the closest hospital, but her mother refused. the reason? she insisted she has to ask the Rabbi if it's ok that the baby will be in a car (In Judaism it is not allowed to "work" on saturdays- which means sunset on friday before to sunset on saturday. work includes driving, and also other stuff like turning the electricity on. I know, makes perfect sense). luckily, the rabbi was contacted and he said it's ok, and the girl survived. but this kind of thickness, and blindly obeying... I just hate that.
I've met people who believe on god and had no problem with me not believing.

It's all good man. Yeah, I can at least kind of agree with you there.

But that example that you just gave... that shit pisses me off man. The girl's life was in jeopardy, and they have to defer to a rabbi for permission to take her to a hospital?

I think that's almost as dumb as Christian Science.

 

[Konfyouzd]

Well he did kind of mix it up. perfectcell did sort out the Konfyouzion though





No. That is agnosticism. Atheism is very specifically the rejection of the existence of gods, which means that they are NOT open to being convinced otherwise. So in a sense, atheism DOES resemble religion, even if it is by definition, an anti-religion.

Which is precisely why I am agnostic. Atheists will ridicule any form of deity worship, but I fail to see how one can just say that there is absolutely no form of higher power and leave it at that. Personally, I think there's way too much unexplainable shit that happens to be sure one way or the other. I mean...fucking quasars are INSANE man.




It's all good man. Yeah, I can at least kind of agree with you there.

But that example that you just gave... that shit pisses me off man. The girl's life was in jeopardy, and they have to defer to a rabbi for permission to take her to a hospital?

I think that's almost as dumb as Christian Science.

Creation science sounds like the same thing as atheism to me if atheism is what you say. It exists simply to serve as an antithesis to something else.

 

[Brendan G]

No. That is agnosticism. Atheism is very specifically the rejection of the existence of gods, which means that they are NOT open to being convinced otherwise. So in a sense, atheism DOES resemble religion, even if it is by definition, an anti-religion.

Which is precisely why I am agnostic. Atheists will ridicule any form of deity worship, but I fail to see how one can just say that there is absolutely no form of higher power and leave it at that. Personally, I think there's way too much unexplainable shit that happens to be sure one way or the other. I mean...fucking quasars are INSANE man.

There are no tenets of atheism, it merely reflects a lack of a belief in god(s). There is no bible of atheism which states "Thou shalt ridicule theism and deity worship". Sure, some may think that it's silly and may ridicule deity worship, but that is no different than saying that it is a tenet of Christianity to hate homosexuals and call them "Fags" and think that solely because they are homosexual and have homosexual thoughts that they will burn in hell forever. There may be individuals who classify themselves as Christian who hold those positions but it is not a well established (key words) part of Christian theology.
Many intellectually honest atheists are in fact open to be convinced otherwise. I'm sure this will seems condescending and I apologize but let's break down the etymology of the word atheist. "A" is a common prefix for not. "Theism" means belief in god(s). Together, not a theist, or no belief in god. There are no claims of certainty or rejection of at least one deity in there. Also, defining something by what it is not seems silly (at least to me). This seems to be mainly a game of semantics. It seems that what you call atheism is more accurately described as anti-theism.
By the way you describe your belief system, you would be classified as an agnostic. I know a little about quasars (Though I do not claim to know much about them other than the conceptual that I will talk about later in this post, I'm not an astro-physicist by any stretch), and they are quite interesting. However, they can be explained by natural causes by super-massive black holes surrounded by gas which for lack of a better term "fuels" it.

tl;dr: What you call "Atheism" is more accurately classified as "Anti-theism" and giving things a potential supernatural explanation explains nothing.

Alternate tl;dr: NUH-UH!

 

[Nights_Blood]

There are no tenets of atheism, it merely reflects a lack of a belief in god(s). There is no bible of atheism which states "Thou shalt ridicule theism and deity worship". Sure, some may think that it's silly and may ridicule deity worship, but that is no different than saying that it is a tenet of Christianity to hate homosexuals and call them "Fags" and think that solely because they are homosexual and have homosexual thoughts that they will burn in hell forever. There may be individuals who classify themselves as Christian who hold those positions but it is not a well established (key words) part of Christian theology.
Many intellectually honest atheists are in fact open to be convinced otherwise. I'm sure this will seems condescending and I apologize but let's break down the etymology of the word atheist. "A" is a common prefix for not. "Theism" means belief in god(s). Together, not a theist, or no belief in god. There are no claims of certainty or rejection of at least one deity in there. This seems to be mainly a game of semantics. It seems that what you call atheism is more accurately described as anti-theism.
By the way you describe your belief system, you would be classified as an agnostic. I know a little about quasars (Though I do not claim to know much about them other than the conceptual that I will talk about later in this post, I'm not an astro-physicist by any stretch), and they are quite interesting. However, they can be explained by natural causes by super-massive black holes surrounded by gas which for lack of a better term "fuels" it.

tl;dr: What you call "Atheism" is more accurately classified as "Anti-theism" and putting a potential supernatural explanation to certain things explain nothing.

I think you took some of my points too literally. Obviously, is there is no church of Atheism or Atheist bible. I think the line you drew between "god-refusing atheists" and "fag-hating christians" was a bit inappropriate, as the former is a lot more in line with (one of) the dictionary definitions of atheism than "hating fags" is to the definition of being a christian. Most who do are considered pretty extreme, not to mention that the bible never says that Christians should hate homosexuals. Only that they will be judged by God.

Firstly, you seem to referencing practical Atheism, where regardless of whether or not a person thinks there are gods, they live as though there are none. According to them, even if there are gods, they have no real influence on us. I'll admit i was wrong in making a bit of a blanket statement about Atheism, but I have not witnessed many people of this school of thought.

In Theoretical Atheism (the more popular one, or at least the one that most religion-hating people try to paint themselves as), people DO actively deny the existence of a god. The theoretical atheists that rely heavily on philosophy always dispute Pascal's Wager unlike Practical Atheists. So, yes, "anti-theism" does indeed apply.

I really didn't think you would take the quasar thing seriously, as I didn't think it to be of much substance in the argument, but while I am on the subject, I don't see how you can just dismiss it as being there. Sure, you can tell me what it's composed of, but can you really comprehend how powerful or how amazing it is that they even exist? I mean, maybe i'm just bat-shit crazy or something, but from an observational point of view, most people don't really can't comprehend the things they read in their science textbooks, and just throw them away as some useless bullshit, when in my opinion, some of these these are way more awe-inspiring than anything that has "made someone believe".

 

[Nights_Blood]

Creation science sounds like the same thing as atheism to me if atheism is what you say. It exists simply to serve as an antithesis to something else.

Well, it could certainly be said about theoretical atheism.


Shit, we're way off topic at this point. Not sure if i should care though...

 

[Brendan G]

I think you took some of my points too literally. Obviously, is there is no church of Atheism or Atheist bible. I think the line you drew between "god-refusing atheists" and "fag-hating christians" was a bit inappropriate, as the former is a lot more in line with (one of) the dictionary definitions of atheism than "hating fags" is to the definition of being a christian. Most who do are considered pretty extreme, not to mention that the bible never says that Christians should hate homosexuals. Only that they will be judged by God.

Firstly, you seem to referencing practical Atheism, where regardless of whether or not a person thinks there are gods, they live as though there are none. According to them, even if there are gods, they have no real influence on us. I'll admit i was wrong in making a bit of a blanket statement about Atheism, but I have not witnessed many people of this school of thought.

In Theoretical Atheism (the more popular one, or at least the one that most religion-hating people try to paint themselves as), people DO actively deny the existence of a god. The theoretical atheists that rely heavily on philosophy always dispute Pascal's Wager unlike Practical Atheists. So, yes, "anti-theism" does indeed apply.

I really didn't think you would take the quasar thing seriously, as I didn't think it to be of much substance in the argument, but while I am on the subject, I don't see how you can just dismiss it as being there. Sure, you can tell me what it's composed of, but can you really comprehend how powerful or how amazing it is that they even exist? I mean, maybe i'm just bat-shit crazy or something, but from an observational point of view, most people don't really can't comprehend the things they read in their science textbooks, and just throw them away as some useless bullshit, when in my opinion, some of these these are way more awe-inspiring than anything that has "made someone believe".

I'm just going to at least try to end the semantical bullshit here (I'm also quite guilty of it, I freely admit it), I'm sure we'll both agree that what we call something doesn't change what it is. But before I drop the topic completely, I'll say that I could have picked a better analogy than I did.
And now, to quasars and other curious scientific phenomena. Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains it much better than I ever could.

 

[Konfyouzd]

what we call something doesn't change what it is.

 

[Nights_Blood]

I'm just going to at least try to end the semantical bullshit here (I'm also quite guilty of it, I freely admit it), I'm sure we'll both agree that what we call something doesn't change what it is. But before I drop the topic completely, I'll say that I could have picked a better analogy than I did.
And now, to quasars and other curious scientific phenomena. Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains it much better than I ever could.

That's fine, i'd rather not but i do hope your not suggesting that the theoretical/practical Atheism issue is irrelevant.

Didn't watch the whole video, but I still think you missed my point on that.

 

[Brendan G]

That's fine, i'd rather not but i do hope your not suggesting that the theoretical/practical Atheism issue is irrelevant.

Didn't watch the whole video, but I still think you missed my point on that.

I just don't think what we call something matters enough to warrant any more discussion of it in this thread. I do understand my point. You're saying there is stuff that is awesome (in the non-slang meaning) and think "There may/could conceivably be something supernatural behind this." which, as that video illustrates, is a philosophy of ignorance. By that I'm not saying that agnosticism or even theism is a philosophy of ignorance, but rather invoking intelligent design or even positing intelligent design as a probable answer is. The questions wherein intelligent design is given as an answer, actual science gives an answer eventually. If your point wasn't "There is phenomenon that we cannot comprehend which lends credibility to the existence of god(s)" then, quite honestly, you didn't express your opinion clearly enough.

 

[eclipsex1]

Personally, I think there's way too much unexplainable shit that happens to be sure one way or the other. I mean...fucking quasars are INSANE man.

Yeah man.. And those fucking magnets..

 

[pink freud]

With all due respect, what differentiates this from agnosticism?

Agnosticism exists purely because of the colloquial way we commonly use the term "knowledge." In truth, everybody is an agnostic. Also in truth, every religious person is an atheist except in regards to their chosen deity.