Anyone here tune in fifths? (OR anything else really wierd/different)

[Drew]

...scales in four-note-per-string patterns...

This is actually what first made me consider tuning in 5ths. Chording would be trickier (but not impossible - a minor chord could be played by barring any three strings, and fretting up a fret on the thinnest, and a major with the same shape but up another fret up top, but it'd certainly be an unusual voicing, root-5-3rd8va), but the real problem (aside from the fact I don't have the reach to comfortably do 4nps stuff between mu middle and ring fingers just yet) is that the physical range of the guitar you'd need to do this on a seven is tremendous - high A would be tough, so you'd really have to tune down, and if you drop a 5th below a low F# (like AYB;s suggested tuning), well, that's a B an octave below standard in 7. That's LOW.

 

[Metal Ken]

With 5ths you have to stretch really far to play close intervals.

I found out that the hard way with the stick. thats why i decided to try to take a break from learning it.

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

My goal is to comme up with a tuning that would work for chord-bass style wiythout too many strings (less than 7). Kinda pocket piano

How about a six string bass tuned E(low E on a 4 stringer) B F# C# G# D# or A E B F# C# D#(same thing up a fourth) low B is not good for chording (muddy), and I suggest using strings a bit on the thin side (also gets rid of mud). I speak from experience (with chord-bass, not fifths tunning).

With 5ths you have to stretch really far to play close intervals.

The thing is, It would sound unique for chording, having the intervals in a different octave than is usual, rather than "fighting" the tunning to play them the "normal" way (which I know is perferable in some circumstances).

One of the tunnings that I came up with on the way is 5-4 on 7string:
From 1st to 4th string tune in 5ths and then in 4ths. THis tuning is symetric, so the lerning should be very intuitive

So you'd keep the lowest three string in fourths, and have the higher ones in fifths-Like this?

A (high A)
D
G
C
G
D
A (one step[2 frets] below low B on standard tuned 7)

Drew also mentioned the bigger stretches for 4 nps playing. I'm used to playing basses like 95% of the time so when I pick up a guitar, the reaches are mostly a big nothing for me. But I could see how this could be problamatic on some of the longer scaled custom ERGs that some of you guys have.

The best chordal tuning is in thirds (but you need many strings to gain the range!) SO it is a trade off. I am trying to design a universal tuning that would improve apone the range and give all necessary chord voicings with a minimal number of strings, but I have not succeded yet. Anyone?

Best I could do was an eight with B being the lowest string, and the highest was a D#/Eb (one semitone below high E on a standard tuned axe). This idea would work better if there where companies who made axes with more than 24 frets (as a STANDARD model) to make up the lost range. Then you could take a seven, with 36 frets, and tune (low - high) B D# G B D# G B and have MORE RANGE than a seven in standard (or perfect fourths) with 24 frets!!

 

[Durero]

About the learning-curve issue - ElRay mentioned a symmetrical major thirds tuning somewhere. That would only give you 3 strings to learn no matter which note you start the tuning pattern on. For example: C E G# C E G# or A C#F A C# F etc.

I think this would be particularly cool for close-voiced chords although it reduces your overall range slightly compared with 4ths.


A symmetrical tritone tuning would yield a 2-string pattern: C F# C F# C F# etc.
This would probably be great for visualizing scales and playing lead patterns, but chord voicings would probably be quite limited without using two-handed tapping.


Personally I'm imprinted on symmetrical 4ths tuning. Lets me switch easily between 6, 7, 9, and 10 string guitars.



Another issue that comes to my mind is picking technique for scales. 4 notes-per-string (5ths tuning) lends itself better to alternate picking than 3nps (4ths tuning) imo. But of course sweep-picking requires an odd number of notes-per-string so tuning in 4ths is better than 5ths for that.

 

[distressed_romeo]

Ron Jarzombek has apparently used the tritone idea before (BFBFBF).

I've used CGDGBE tuning (similar to The Dark Wolf's tuning) before, which is similar to the cello-tuning idea, although a logical extension of that would be CGDABE or CGDGCF.

On a seven, what about FCGDGCF?

Alternatively, what about have the highest strings in fifths, and the bass-end in fourths, for example ADGCGDA (the high A would probably be possible with Garry Goodman's strings)?
Actually, that would make an awesome tuning on an 8 string touch-style instrument: E(bass' low E)ADGCGDA!!!!

Interestingly, I'm just checking out an interview with stick-master Trey Gunn ( http://www.elephant-talk.com/intervws/gunn-but.htm ), and he uses a tuning on his melody side that's based on fiths with a minor third and then a tone on top...
On guitar, you could try FCGDACD...



Actually, I'm going to try that idea on my acoustic later tonight! I'll post back with thoughts...

UPDATE...

OK...I tried CGDACD, and whilst it was interesting, it wasn't a very intuitive tuning. I imagine if you had a guitar specially set up for it with the appropriate string gauges it could be great, but it didn't work so well on my acoustic (which had an 11-52 set on it). I might come back to this one later and investigate it properly.

Tried a different approach, and tuned DGCDAE; fourths on the bass side, and fifths on the melody side. This was much better, and although there'd clearly be a huge learning curve involved, I quickly began coming up with some interesting lines. I'm going to give it another try tonight.

Some observations about fifths tuning...

• Four-note per string fingerings are the only practical way to finger scales, so you'd either have to get used to four-finger spreads (a la Holdsworth), finger slides (a la Greg Howe), or tapping the highest note on each string (a la Reb Beach). Shouldn't be too huge an adjustment (as those techniques are pretty standard guitar kung fu these days).
• Pentatonics can be very easily played across all the strings in one position using three-note-per-string fingerings. Given that I love non-blues pentatonic stuff, this is a major advantage as far as I'm concerned.
• Arpeggios really need to be fingered using a two-note-per-string approach to be practical. This could prove to be technically challenging, but at the same time, it would be great for breaking out of the familiar shred patterns. Alternatively, tap through them all, like Tony MacAlpine does in standard tuning...
• If you wanted to play a chromatic scale across the whole neck, you'd need a six-note-per-string approach. Perhaps four left hand fingers and two from the right hand, or three fingers of each hand.

There are definitely a lot of possibilities with these sorts of tunings, and I'll be investigating them a lot more for sure. I'm beginning to suspect that developing some new two-handed techniques is going to be essential if these sort of tunings are going to be used to their fullest potential...
The nice thing though, is that it's really hard to play all the standard guitar cliches, which is a major advantage if you're into experimental playing...

Incidentally, here's a detailed article about different touch-style tunings...

http://www.clicmusic.be/tunings-tg.htm#1.1.5 A Quick guide: Which tuning should I play

 

[ElRay]

About the learning-curve issue - ElRay mentioned a symmetrical major thirds tuning somewhere. That would only give you 3 strings to learn no matter which note you start the tuning pattern on.

I found a number of Jazz guitarists that tune a "standard" seven string E-to-e in Major 3rds (same range as a standard 6-string). You get two full octaves from any position. Makes it easier to sight-read. The tuning is symmetric, so you can move the same triad/chord shapes up/down and across the neck. Chord substitutions are reduced (C7b9 is not substituted by a Db diminished seventh chord). The first and last strings are the same note, so you can barre more or less like you would with a 6-string -- makes it easy to get that pulsing comp by releasing the barre. (not that I can do this well--yet).

Three potential downsides: 1) There's a lot of Classical pieces with low-A&D drones, you'll lose those; 2) Some 'typical' folksy chord shapes are impossible; 3) Once you're used to this, you just can't pick-up any old guitar and play.

The intent when I get a "long scale" 7-string is to tune it B-to-b or A-to-a in Major 3rds.

 

[distressed_romeo]

I found a number of Jazz guitarists that tune a "standard" seven string E-to-e in Major 3rds (same range as a standard 6-string). You get two full octaves from any position. Makes it easier to sight-read. The tuning is symmetric, so you can move the same triad/chord shapes up/down and across the neck. The first and last strings are the same note, so you can barre more or less like you would with a 6-string -- makes it easy to get that pulsing comp by releasing the barre. (not that I can do this well--yet).

The intent when I get a "long scale" 7-string is to tune it B-to-b or A-to-a in Major 3rds.

Interesting idea...

 

[ElRay]

Interestingly, I'm just checking out an interview with stick-master Trey Gunn ( http://www.elephant-talk.com/intervws/gunn-but.htm ), and he uses a tuning on his melody side that's based on fiths with a minor third and then a tone on top...

Sounds similar to Fripp's "new standard tuning" -- all 5ths between strings 6-2 and then a minor 3rd between 2&1. {Elephant-Talk is a Fripp/King Crimson site, isn't it?}

That might not be a bad way to go on a 7-string. First string is that infamous high-A, then down by a minor 3rd, then down by fifths.

Ray

 

[distressed_romeo]

Sounds similar to Fripp's "new standard tuning" -- all 5ths between strings 6-2 and then a minor 3rd between 2&1. {Elephant-Talk is a Fripp/King Crimson site, isn't it?}

That might not be a bad way to go on a 7-string. First string is that infamous high-A, then down by a minor 3rd, then down by fifths.

Ray

Yeah, I suspect Gunn based this tuning of Fripp's 'New Standard'. Like I said, it's interesting, but not very intuitive, which IIRC is the point of the 'Guitar Craft'-type tunings; they're meant to force you to think about what you're playing, and not fall back on familiar cliches or fingering patterns.

 

[ElRay]

The intent when I get a "long scale" 7-string is to tune it B-to-b or A-to-a in Major 3rds.

Interesting idea...

I'm also thinking about single-string capos, in-case I start missing the low-string drones.

Ray

 

[distressed_romeo]

Update 2...

Fingering standard triads is obviously a challenge in fifths-based tunings, but fuck, chords absolutely sing in these tunings! Trust me, give it a go and you'll hear the difference!

This is enough to really make me want to try an all-fifths tuning!

 

[Durero]

I'm also thinking about single-string capos

Me too! They are going to be quite important to the design of my next prototype. I've been imagining implanting some magnets in the fretboard and using magnetic single-string capos.
I'd love to hear your thoughts & design ideas on this issue

 

[distressed_romeo]

ElRay, a thought...

What about combinding the fifths idea, with the thirds idea? You could divide up the fretboard, and have one side tuned in fifths, and the other in major thirds, for instance CGD (fifths side) GBD# (thirds side). I'm experimenting with this one at the moment...post back with an update in a little bit.

Hey, I was thinking, we'd never come to a conclusion, but we should put our heads together and try and devise the Official SS.ORG Alternative Standard tuning!

UPDATE #1

First impression with thirds...

Obviously it's cool having a whole chromatic scale in one position, but when you play chords, they sound a little 'clunky' due to the overall 'out-ness' of thirds on the guitar. Fifths worked much better for this, even if the fingerings were a lot harder...

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

Update 2...

Fingering standard triads is obviously a challenge in fifths-based tunings, but fuck, chords absolutely sing in these tunings! Trust me, give it a go and you'll hear the difference!

This is enough to really make me want to try an all-fifths tuning!

Triads and seventh chords are easy to play, IF and only if, you use the different inversions that are more easily available because of the fifths tunning.


Seventh chords for a guitar in fifths.
Tuning (low - to - high) F# C# G# D# A F
Sevenths are highlighted in dark red.

I highly agree that the chords sound absolutley wonderful. I tuned my Bass (low-to-high) to B F# C# G# for a bit, and experimented with chords way up on the neck... they sounded lovely.

we should put our heads together and try and devise the Official SS.ORG Alternative Standard tuning!

Now THAT sounds like an awesome idea!!

 

[distressed_romeo]

Triads and seventh chords are easy to play, IF and only if, you use the different inversions that are more easily available because of the fifths tunning.

Seventh chords for a guitar in fifths.
Tuning (low - to - high) F# C# G# D# A F
Sevenths are highlighted in dark red.

I highly agree that the chords sound absolutley wonderful. I tuned my Bass (low-to-high) to B F# C# G# for a bit, and experimented with chords way up on the neck... they sounded lovely.

That's what I meant; those sorts of voicings are nice and easy to play in fifths-tuning, but a standard first-inversion triad is a bitch to finger (it's doable, but the stretch is so big, it's not going to be practical in most playing situations). Not necessarily a huge loss, as those open voicings sound amazing anyway!

I was wondering what a four-string bass in fifths would sound like, as I was reading an article earlier about double-bassists who tune in fifths...

http://www.dennismasuzzo.com/bassinfifthsarticle.htm


Hey, has anyone ever played a four-string tenor guitar (tuned CGDA)?

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

I was wondering what a four-string bass in fifths would sound like, as I was reading an article earlier about double-bassists who tune in fifths...

http://www.dennismasuzzo.com/bassinfifthsarticle.htm

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showthread.php?t=23270
Note that this clip is not very good and the playing is very freeform. It is definantley NOT the way I usually sound, plus it like 4 in the morning when I recorded it, so I didn't expect it to be very good even at the time. I was mostly messing around instead of trying to play well. I simply detuned my four, in E A D G, to B F# C# G# so my 2 lowest strings were VERY floppy, and it is very obvious in the clip (to me atleast).

 

[Stan P]

Update 2...

Fingering standard triads is obviously a challenge in fifths-based tunings, but fuck, chords absolutely sing in these tunings! Trust me, give it a go and you'll hear the difference!

This is enough to really make me want to try an all-fifths tuning!

I agree... It give you some kindo of cello-violin like overtones . If it makes sence.

SO many great ideas!!! Guys this is awesome! I will try the bass - guitar x-over tuning and let you know how it works ..


ANother question - DId anyone try a SUS chord on 5ths?

I find the the inverted voicing very weird

 

[ElRay]

Me too! They are going to be quite important to the design of my next prototype. I've been imagining implanting some magnets in the fretboard and using magnetic single-string capos.
I'd love to hear your thoughts & design ideas on this issue

I don't really want to hijack the thread, so let's PM/start a new thread if this goes much further.

I've found someone who did the magnet in the fretboard, somebody else who had special frets that the capos snapped under, somebody who put a banjo 5th string sliding capo on a classical guitar, several folks that have drilled holes through the fretboard to hold clamps from underneath the neck and the "Third Hand" capo.

Until I saw that sliding banjo capo, the "least bad" route seemed to be to place a iron/nickle/cobalt (something a magnet will stick to) under the fret board at the spots I'd like to have the capos stick, and then put magnets in the capos. I didn't like the idea of permanent magnets in the fretboard. Also, this route uses the least number of magnets.

I'd like to get my hands on one of those banjo capos, and see if: 1) I can get more than one capo on the rail (one for each of the three lowest strings), and 2) there's a way to extend the reach so the set of three could capo any of the three lowest strings.

Ray

What about combinding the fifths idea, with the thirds idea? You could divide up the fretboard, and have one side tuned in fifths, and the other in major thirds ...

My brain works better than my fingers. I started looking at symmetric tunings to keep things easy. That sounds like a good idea, but not conducive for me given my already limited "free" time.

Obviously it's cool having a whole chromatic scale in one position, but when you play chords, they sound a little 'clunky' due to the overall 'out-ness' of thirds on the guitar.

My ear's not that good yet. Plus, I'm trying this on a 6-string acoustic with "regular" strings. With time, an "optimized" set of strings, and a better guitar, that equal temperament error may get to me.

Ray

 

[Stan P]

So far my conclusions are:

It makes sence to have atleast one 3rd somewhere in mid or high register where you are going to play chords to be able to play 3rds and sus chords. It is not very practical to have greater interval than 4ths in that bass register - to be able to do std. walks (Bass players, do you agree?)

How about a pattern like this (5 5ths separated by a maj 3rd?):
F#
B
G
C
I see it may work nice in treble register... kinda like classical upside down

 

[distressed_romeo]

So far my conclusions are:

It makes sence to have atleast one 3rd somewhere in mid or high register where you are going to play chords to be able to play 3rds and sus chords. It is not very practical to have greater interval than 4ths in that bass register - to be able to do std. walks (Bass players, do you agree?)

How about a pattern like this (5 5ths separated by a maj 3rd?):
F#
B
G
C
I see it may work nice in treble register... kinda like classical upside down

That's a nice idea.

We've already mentioned a similar idea, using a fourths/fifths combination, similar to Open C tuning, such as BEBEBE, or CGCGCG.

Interesting point, but I've spent a lot of time playing in DADGAD on the acoustic guitar over the years, and it's easily one of my favourite altered tunings (in Celtic music it's almost and alternative standard tuning). I've found having the whole step between the 2nd and 3rd strings is great for chords, and actually resonates nicely, particularly if you like a lot of sus chords.
So, what about CGDAEF#? This would give you all the benefits of fifths tuning, but would allow you to fret close-voiced triads easily on the top three strings. The more I think about this one, the more it appeals...man, I wish I had a hardtailo guitar with me...

Alternatively, if you're going to go with the fifths/thirds idea, how about BF#C#FCG or AEBEbBbF, as this would put the third in the centre, giving the fretboard a greater sense of symmmetry.

Another idea, based on the fourths/fifths concept, would be AEBAEB; only three strings to learn!

The more I think about it, the more the CGDAEF# tuning appeals...I may take the plunge and slap it on my acoustic tonight...