Approaches to recording the two guitar band

[noodles]

This is something I really started to think more about last night when I was working on our demo. My observations on how pickups effect this can be found on page two of this thread:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/pi...l-tech/30008-alnico-5-magnet-swap-thread.html

I'm definitely new to the two guitar thing, since I was always the sole guitar player in every band I've been in. I've played with singers who pick up a guitar for a song here and there, but for the most part, all of my recording experiences have involved me playing all the guitar parts.

My approach has always been find a guitar tone that works well doubled, grab my favorite rhythm machine, and lay down a pair of tracks. The sound is always thick, authoritative, and extremely forgiving.

The exact opposite is now true. I have struggled trying to lay down tracks after Mike. What appeared to be the same situation on the surface (two rhythm tracks, dialed in with almost identical tones) turned out to be much different. Rather than the second track blending and masking the slight variations of both tracks, it sounded as if every little blemish was brought bubbling to the surface. The two guitars sounded boomy together. Nothing was sitting well in the mix. I struggled along, completely frustrated and uninspired, while several weeks passed by. I found myself not even wanting to record.

Once I changed pickups, it was like going back to former experiences. Stuff just started flying down. Yes, I'm still running into the snags of difficult parts, but that is the normal, expected situation. The added pressures are gone, and last night was the first night in a month that I was truly productive. It is amazing to find that one (relatively) small change can make such a huge difference. I'm now thinking of going back and rerecording the stuff I did before.

So, I'm still a bit puzzled as to why this happened. Rhythmically, Mike and I are extremely similar. Live we sound absolutely massive. Why is the studio so radically different? Are there situations where the former approach would work better? Does anyone else in a two guitar band find that differing tones is the only way to record separate rhythm tracks, or is there really merit to the Slayer approach of letting one guy record all the rhythm tracks for any given song?

 

[Zepp88]

The thing I really found helpful with recording with two guitar players was hearing the drum tracks.

When both guitar players can lock together perfectly with the drums the results are terrific.

At least it helped me, especially when me and Jason (other guitar) are very different styled players.

 

[Grom]

I am currently in the process of recording an EP with my band, and thankfully we have a pretty different sound in studio. We tend to use a 5150 live together, but in studio it just seems logical to try to create havoc by working on complementary frequencies rather than redundancy.

However, when working on my own, I like to use the same sound on the different tracks ... I only wanted to thicken the signal then, not trying to make 2 complementary tracks and 2 guitarists shine on their own.

Meshuggah uses the same process as Slayer, but their music is so chirurgical that they do it to be able to match themselves better in the recording process. This is then logical to do so.

 

[Vince]

Have you done any frequency analysis? If you're overloading one frequency, it's going to sound very boomy.

 

[DSS3]

There really is merit to the 'Slayer' way of doing things.

One guitarist is going to be able to play his parts closer than anyone else ever would, so in the end, one guitarist doing all the rhythm tracks for a song is going to sound tighter than two.

That said, there is the issue of character - if you've got one guy with a slightly better sense of rhythm and one guy who's a bit more accurate with his picking hand, it's going to breathe a bit more than just one guy tracking.

It all boils down to what you want.

Are you going for an extremely tight sound, a more vibey feel, or a blend of the two? They aren't mutually exclusive, one thing I find many people overlook.

 

[noodles]

Have you done any frequency analysis? If you're overloading one frequency, it's going to sound very boomy.

It's just a prepro on a Roland 8-track right now. Which is fine for me, since I just play guitar. I'm just starting to learn more. I'm sure what you're suggesting is in the cards when we go to record for real, but I'm just loking for a simple solution at this time.

 

[Matt Crooks]

... is there really merit to the Slayer approach of letting one guy record all the rhythm tracks for any given song?

Yes, this really is the best way. If you are going to wind up using very similar sounds you have to play tight as hell, or you'll hear ever variation.

For every recording Division did, whoever went second was stuck matching pick stroke for pick stroke what the other had done. I always thought the same thing you do "we're tight as hell live". Once we got in the studio I realized that the 120db sound system was covering up minor differences.

Honestly though - every two guitar band that has come through the studio, I recommend letting one guy do the rhythms for any given song.

 

[7 Dying Trees]

Yes, this really is the best way. If you are going to wind up using very similar sounds you have to play tight as hell, or you'll hear ever variation.

For every recording Division did, whoever went second was stuck matching pick stroke for pick stroke what the other had done. I always thought the samething you do "we're tight as hell live". Once we got in the studio I realized that the 120db sound system was covering up minor differences.

Honestly though - every two guitar band that has come through the studio, I recommend letting one guy do the rhythms for any given song.

Yep, just easier to get one guy to do one, and then the other guy to do another one. Bonus is that you can concentrate much more on fewer songs. Then let each guitar player overdo any lead parts they have themselves. Keeps the rythm tight, and the leads personal.

Studio is such a different beast than live :/, to me, more of a pain, like an evil necessity.

 

[Christopher]

I've got a thrash metal band in the studio right now. Two guitarists, same tone, playing different parts sometimes, the exact same parts other times.

It's a real challenge to get them tight. Tonally, I make them spread out quite a bit within the tone they're using. They both want a very saturated slightly mid scooped heavy rhythm sound. I forced them both to make compromises slightly in the tone they want. One guy gets a little more mids the other a little brighter, etc.

For the playing part you either can (like stated above) have one guy do the work, or just make them get it down. Don't forget to look at the performance of the first layer though. I've had guys come in to do the second layer and just knock themselves out trying to get it perfect and not getting there only to realize that it was the first guy that wasn't tight.

When it's a two man show I always sit down with the solo'd drums and that particular pass and really listen for inconsistencies. If there's any sway in the rhythm there the other layers won't line up. If it absolutely can't be done any other way I have been known to cut and paste a riff or section and use it again in the same song.

 

[Matt Crooks]

Also... I've found that regardless of what they say, there's always one guitarist who can play a given section of a song better than the other one. Sometimes, though, it's up to the producer to pick which one it is, because people often can't see/hear their own flaws.

The other thing that can really help, if you must use two guitarists, at least use the same guitar. This will eliminate any slight intonation issues from guitar to guitar. For harmonized sections make sure that you're both playing the parts on the same strings, that will help the intonation as well.

 

[DSS3]

I have been known to cut and paste a riff or section and use it again in the same song.

Extremely common practice, and a HUGE timesaver. If you've got it down perfect once, why waste time tracking it again? (there are arguments against, this, I know.)

 

[eaeolian]

For every recording Division did, whoever went second was stuck matching pick stroke for pick stroke what the other had done. I always thought the same thing you do "we're tight as hell live". Once we got in the studio I realized that the 120db sound system was covering up minor differences.

True enough. I go both ways with the "same guy tracking both parts" approach, but there's no question it's a much faster way to get it tight, as I've personally done (as you well know) songs in 10-15 second sections to get the tightness happening, and we had the advantage of having ten years of playing together. However, there's definitely a certain "vibe" to having two guys do it that doing them singly doesn't reproduce...

 

[Drew]

However, there's definitely a certain "vibe" to having two guys do it that doing them singly doesn't reproduce...

Exactly. You couldn't really record "Sticky Fingers" with Keith Richards playing every guitar part and have it come out quite the same, nor could you do, idunno, Fear Factory with two guitarists doubling each other.

I'm kind of interested by your observations, noodles, but I have no idea what to make of them.

 

[noodles]

I'm kind of interested by your observations, noodles, but I have no idea what to make of them.

That makes two of us.

 

[noodles]

True enough. I go both ways with the "same guy tracking both parts" approach, but there's no question it's a much faster way to get it tight, as I've personally done (as you well know) songs in 10-15 second sections to get the tightness happening, and we had the advantage of having ten years of playing together. However, there's definitely a certain "vibe" to having two guys do it that doing them singly doesn't reproduce...

I'm going both ways on it, too. For what I was working on Tuesday, I could go both ways on the same song. The single note lines in the intro, and the straight eight chugging in the solo are an absolute bitch to line up correctly. I thought they would be the easiest parts of the song, but trying to play exactly the same way as you is maddening. Then, I came to all the fast gallops that I thought would be the problem, and it sounds absolutely massive. I felt in the zone, like I could do no wrong.

Maybe these prepros will wind up being a good way for us to identify who should record what parts on the next album, rather than the traditional approach of both of us recording exactly what we play live.

 

[darren]

I think most two guitar bands dial in different sounds for each guitarist. If you have two very similar sounds, you'll end up with potential phasing issues, and some frequencies will "double up" and others will get cancelled out. Layering different amps/guitars/pickpus with the same parts is a better way to get huge sounds in my experience.

In my band, my sound is very hard, and slightly scooped. Steve's is much smoother and creamier, with more midrange. Together, they sound massive.

 

[Matt Crooks]

Maybe these prepros will wind up being a good way for us to identify who should record what parts on the next album, rather than the traditional approach of both of us recording exactly what we play live.

The Twisted Tower Dire record I recorded (out now on Remedy Records!) was done with each guitarist playing specific sections of the songs rather than splitting it up song by song. They also used the same guitar (LP Custom) for their tracking.

 

[Matt Crooks]

However, there's definitely a certain "vibe" to having two guys do it that doing them singly doesn't reproduce...

Very true. The question is "do you like that vibe for the song in question".

... and do you have the money to pay for the extra studio time it could take for two guitarists to be as tight as one guitarist doubling himself. Not an issue if you are traking in your home studio.... or you fire Dave

 

[eaeolian]

Maybe these prepros will wind up being a good way for us to identify who should record what parts on the next album, rather than the traditional approach of both of us recording exactly what we play live.

That would be one of the reasons we're doing them. I've been down this street before...

 

[eaeolian]

Very true. The question is "do you like that vibe for the song in question".