are Piezos even necessary anymore?

[LunatiqueRob]

Okay, let's talk Variax for a bit.

There're essentially two options with the Variax guitars.

I have an Acoustic 700 (mentioned above) that's about 15 years old now. Edge of U2 has a couple of these things and uses them onstage. It's actually *not* a shallow-body acoustic guitar, though it looks like one. It's a solid mahogany guitar that has what looks like a spruce top. That makes it pretty much impervious to the feedback issues you have with most acoustics onstage, but you look like you're using an acoustic. That particular guitar has a bunch of acoustic models built in *and* the ability to use alternate tunings. I use one that has the low E and A tuned an octave down, to play bass lines, with the rest of the strings tuned normally. The sounds don't work all that well (IMHO) with a guitar amp, which has limited frequency response, but they're pretty darned accurate through a PA or similarly wide-range speaker system.

I've also got three of the electrics, including two newer JTV-89Fs with Graphtech Ghost saddles on an OFR. These guitars mostly model other electrics, but they've also got some decent acoustic models built in, and it's about the only way you can get an acoustic guitar and a Floyd together. Again, a standard guitar amp is not how you want to hear these models. But they sound mostly like a piezo-miked guitar, like the Expression series setup on a Taylor 814ce. Good, but not an acoustic miked in air.

The issue with miking an acoustic in air on stage is that you have to deal with feedback, stage volume, and every other instrument in a band/orchestra contaminating the sound. But there's a cure. You can actually download IRs of specific guitars miked in air. Drop them onto a Helix (for example), run your Variax through that, and you've got (for example) a Taylor 314 miked in air sound instead of your Takamine or Yamaha with a piezo. You can use these with the models in a Variax, and it's eyebrow-raising. All of this from a guitar shaped like a shredder super Strat.

Thanks for the great tip on the IRs.

I have a JTV-69, and the acoustic models on it don't sound nearly as good as on the acoustic Variax (as you said, they just sound like plastic piezo acoustic). I assume they could sound great with the IRs you mentioned, but I have never heard them with those IRs before. I might give it a try at some point, but for now, my Yamaha Silent guitars do everything I need in the acoustic area (both steel and nylon). Also, I'm skeptical if it's even possible for any of the Variaxs, without or without the IRs, to nail the nylon acoustic sound.

 

[LunatiqueRob]

I bought a Martin SC10 series this year as my first acoustic ever. Picked it up and it was super comfortable etc. get home and learn that it was literally designed with electric players in mind. Thinner nut width than many acoustics, thinner neck, unique bracing design to allow higher upper fret access.

It’s sort of in topic as I bought it to play without all my gear and to just sing along with. Now for recording? Idk but unless you’re recording an acoustic song I don’t think they may be “required” for like one passage on one song anymore like in the past.

I almost got one. It was on my comparison shopping list, but in the end, I went for the Ibanez AE325 because of the pickup options. I returned it though because mine had uneven frets (Ibanez QA is so bad), and I also realized I need better access to the upper frets as well as more frets. That's when I decided to go for the Yamaha Silent Guitars.

 

[Bloody_Inferno]

I've gotten away with using the Double Edge piezo through a Fishman platinum DI FOH, and even then I thought it was just passable and adequate at best. Live, the audience won't really bother to care, and it's an efficient solution to bringing an acoustic on a stand just for those moments.

Outside of blending with an electric tone, I'll never use that sound to recreate an acoustic for a final recording (demos are a different story). Even with all the new kinds of simulators that sound much better than ever, you'll still never get that authentic acoustic sound. If I wanted to record an acoustic sound, I'll just grab an acoustic and mic it.

That said, I've gotten away with using a piezo pickup on an Ibanez SRH fretless bass to get some convincing upright sounds, again using the Fishman DI FOH rather than through an amp.

 

[mystix]

As a gigging guitarist, absolutely. I have a prs Hollowbody ii with piezo that i use for more than half our set. It is absolutely amazing to play and sounds glorious.

 

[OmegaSlayer]

Piezo have different dynamics and can be really interesting if you mix them like Cantrell does

 

[dspellman]

Thanks for the great tip on the IRs.

I have a JTV-69, and the acoustic models on it don't sound nearly as good as on the acoustic Variax (as you said, they just sound like plastic piezo acoustic). I assume they could sound great with the IRs you mentioned, but I have never heard them with those IRs before. I might give it a try at some point, but for now, my Yamaha Silent guitars do everything I need in the acoustic area (both steel and nylon). Also, I'm skeptical if it's even possible for any of the Variaxs, without or without the IRs, to nail the nylon acoustic sound.

See if you can find an Acoustic 700 and give that nylon acoustic model a run. Let me know what you think. But definitely do it on a full-range speaker system (or good headphones). Same actually applies to the rest of the acoustic models including those on the 69.

What got me started on using specific IRs on the Helix with the acoustic models on the Variax was this from Pete Thorn. He was actually feeding the Helix with a Takamine/piezo, but I've found that the Variax really works as well:
Check out the part beginning at about 4:40 (I think):

 

[MaxAidingAres]

Piezos are cool and CAN give an authentic piezo sound but the issue is people plug them into Electric guitar amps. Theyre designed for acoustic amps and even then only do so much. Its like taking an acoustic guitar and plugging it in. It wont sound the same. There are acoustic Pedals and Impulses that give you authentic piezo sounds.

I have a parker fly and a Prs Ce 24 with the graphtech piezo. Through my amps they just sound jangly, but when my friend adds an impulse or uses an acoustic impulse pedal. They sound very realistic

 

[dspellman]

One other comment;
One of my bucket list guitars is James Trussart's Steelphonic (I love the one in Rust/Cream snakeskin), which has a piezo (B-Band) on what he calls a "Candy box" under the bridge. Along with some (usually) mini-humbuckers, this is a guitar that can produce some seriously interesting sounds, including a near-resonator sound that's amazing with a slide.

 

[LunatiqueRob]

See if you can find an Acoustic 700 and give that nylon acoustic model a run. Let me know what you think. But definitely do it on a full-range speaker system (or good headphones). Same actually applies to the rest of the acoustic models including those on the 69.

What got me started on using specific IRs on the Helix with the acoustic models on the Variax was this from Pete Thorn. He was actually feeding the Helix with a Takamine/piezo, but I've found that the Variax really works as well:
Check out the part beginning at about 4:40 (I think):

I had the Acoustic Variax 700 for several years but sold it. I didn't think the nylon string model sounded that good--not even close to my uber cheap and beat up real nylon string. I have a full-range $10K system in a fully treated studio, with room correction software, as well as thousand-dollar headphones, so I don't think it's possible to hear them any better than I already did.

The reason why I opted for Yamaha's Silent Guitars was because of how amazing the SRT tech sounded, as well as having more frets, better access to upper frets, extreme light weight (it basically has no body-just a frame), and easy to travel with (the frame can be taken off and it only takes about 3 seconds). The built-in effects and tuner were extra bonuses.

Here's a video that demos both steel and nylon versions, as well as the various features. Listen to the SRT sound--it's so natural sounding.

 

[Jamiecrain]

I have had piezo in four guitars. Whenever I pick up a guitar that hasn’t got one, I think “half a guitar”. Why? Piezos sound better than any acoustic sim I’ve tried.

Can you get away with not having a piezo? Absolutely. But would I choose not to have it? No.

The piezo system in the EBMM JP guitars is absolutely amazing FWIW.

 

[odibrom]

I have had piezo in four guitars. Whenever I pick up a guitar that hasn’t got one, I think “half a guitar”. Why? Piezos sound better than any acoustic sim I’ve tried.

Can you get away with not having a piezo? Absolutely. But would I choose not to have it? No.

The piezo system in the EBMM JP guitars is absolutely amazing FWIW.

It's interesting you say that, I kind of fel the same about mine, although the last 3 I've bought don't have piezos on them. On these, I generally can get away with some sort of combination of neck single coil, inner coils in parallel, neck in parallel, or neck split with middle single in parallel. These are the closest combos I find to using piezos instead, but they're not quite there. I love mixing piezos with mags as well...

My guitars are loaded with either LR Baggs or Graphtech system. I prefer the sound of LR Baggs, they sound less "V" EQ-ed...

 

[dspellman]

I had the Acoustic Variax 700 for several years but sold it. I didn't think the nylon string model sounded that good--not even close to my uber cheap and beat up real nylon string. I have a full-range $10K system in a fully treated studio, with room correction software, as well as thousand-dollar headphones, so I don't think it's possible to hear them any better than I already did.

The reason why I opted for Yamaha's Silent Guitars was because of how amazing the SRT tech sounded, as well as having more frets, better access to upper frets, extreme light weight (it basically has no body-just a frame), and easy to travel with (the frame can be taken off and it only takes about 3 seconds). The built-in effects and tuner were extra bonuses.

Here's a video that demos both steel and nylon versions, as well as the various features. Listen to the SRT sound--it's so natural sounding.

I've honestly never really been able to rely on Youtube sound. But it sounds good! The Variax tech in the Acoustic 700 is close to 20 years old at this point. Yamaha owns Line 6 and it'll be interesting to see how/if they integrate their own modeling expertise into that of Line 6; most of the Line 6 lineup is due for a refresh soon. The Yamaha Silent Guitar has a single job and does it well. The Variax covers a lot more ground, including a lot of other instruments *and* alternate tunings. I think it does a good job, and for both live and recording work, it's been excellent.

 

[phfobric]

Loved Parkers. Still do. Couldn't afford a USA$$$ and settled on a P-38, bolt on, Korean. And replaced the HB with a SD JB-4, and the SCs with SD stacked coils, so technically a Parker "Red" Beauty; 3 HBs. Locking Sperzels...Tremel-no

The Piezo worked well, but when we got the sked, it had a grd wire going to a live component, and it worked, when we changed the pups. Weird. Never REALLY used the Piezo(s) I confess. i'd love to have a Parker 7, of course

 

[Furtive Glance]

I love mine <3. Deal breaker? "Necessary"? No, but I'll opt for them if I have the freedom to!

 

[odibrom]

I love mine <3. Deal breaker? "Necessary"? No, but I'll opt for them if I have the freedom to!

... this is the way...

 

[bzhang9]

I have had piezo in four guitars. Whenever I pick up a guitar that hasn’t got one, I think “half a guitar”. Why? Piezos sound better than any acoustic sim I’ve tried.

Can you get away with not having a piezo? Absolutely. But would I choose not to have it? No.

The piezo system in the EBMM JP guitars is absolutely amazing FWIW.

EBMM piezo systems are the biggest pile of garbage ever made, so unreliable, so impossible to fix, 50% of JPs I've owned had piezo problems

 

[LunatiqueRob]

Loved Parkers. Still do. Couldn't afford a USA$$$ and settled on a P-38, bolt on, Korean. And replaced the HB with a SD JB-4, and the SCs with SD stacked coils, so technically a Parker "Red" Beauty; 3 HBs. Locking Sperzels...Tremel-no

The Piezo worked well, but when we got the sked, it had a grd wire going to a live component, and it worked, when we changed the pups. Weird. Never REALLY used the Piezo(s) I confess. i'd love to have a Parker 7, of course

Do you ever feel like the angled upper horn is uncomfortable? Some say it digs into their ribs when playing.

I lusted after Parkers for many years, after I saw/played one at a Guitar Center in 1998 (I worked at the San Francisco branch). But it was too rich for a starving artist like me, and over the years, I felt "unworthy" of such an expensive high-end guitar. By the time I could afford one, the company already went under. Now they're even more expensive since they're considered collector's items (unless Parker gets revived, I guess).

To date, I still have not come across a guitar lighter than Parker--not even Strandbergs.

 

[soldierkahn]

I use piezos regularly with my guitars. I use them as a different source of tones, even over-drivem.

My main guitars are LoPro Double Edge loaded and have modded others with Graphtech's Ghost system.

I don't care for the acoustic feel and often mix them with mags...

thats the main reason Ive always wanted to try out Piezos. I love an accoustics sound, but absoltuely hate playing an actual accoustic lol

 

[soldierkahn]

If you don't use digital it probably makes more sense. With my Axe FX I'd just make an acoustic patch if I really wanted one.

does the AFX have a decent sounding accoustic patch?

 

[soldierkahn]

Piezos are necessary so that noise artists can slap a contact microphone on a trash can, run that fucker through an HM-2, and then break glass bottles in said trash can

also you can attach them to a gross rusty piece of metal and then drag another equally gross piece of metal across it to make the most god-awful sound ever (also running through HM-2 naturally)

also you can inscribe esoteric runes on pieces of paper, clip on a pieazo, and then tear off strips and burn them in a ritual brazier (while running through HM-2)

YMMV but these are the main uses I actually have witnessed IRL for them and they were all cool as fuck

i dont get it.