Are tube amps the new vinyl?

[NickK-UK]

Having played with both:

NeuralDSP plugins
Pros
* Less clutter
* 90% of the sound of a amp + cab
* give option to get a feel for the sound using trials over a couple of weeks
* integrates nicely with online content tools such as OBS or music tools.
* lots of twiddle capability with the plugin pedals
* headphones easy
* cheaper initial outlay than a tube amp
* able to have multiple amps for no room..
* able to get *that* sound each and every time.
Cons
* limited 'pedal' or difficult pedal matching - you can't mix and match or rearrange, nor do you get pedals playing well with DIs in some cases, no DI pedal effects loop.
* I've noted that the plugins aren't as flexible as the real amps - with a medium hot pickup I can't get a clean tone out of the Fortin plugin, necessitating the purchase of a second plugin for the cooler sounds of the Abassi plugins etc.
* some delay and for OBS quite a bit of delay. This makes playing based on the sound difficult.
* not sure how long the plugin will work for due to software updates etc - would it be like apple, where a plugin licensing ends up dying out (as it's a run service so has a cost somewhere).
* no tube running costs
* need a computer and DI interface, all require updates and replacements over time.
* need of computer in a gig.. can be a negative.

Tube amp for the DIYer
Pros
* tunaable sound - both in settings, and mods and tubes - going to need some knowledge, some gear (I'm lucky with a scope, sig gen and bench power)
* long lived
* Can run a cab miked but also use a power soak and DI interface (or build one into the amp) to reduce space taken, allowing PA integration
* pedal flexible with both front pedal loads or as part of a pedal/fx loop.
* analogue sound.. can appear less sterile
* no delay
* easy headphones when silent power soaking
Cons
* large cost up front
* tube replacements
* "one sound"
* unregulated power supply means sound can very with power
* noise
* heavy and bulky
* suck electricity

As a DIYer hobbyist in electronics the tube amps makes it easier to change something. As someone that has near 30 years in software and has done 2D and 3D IIR on images for optical systems, I understand what the DSP is doing and understand that there's basically little I can do to take a plugin and adapt it. There's alot more work creating a VST and FIR/IIR plugin capability if I wanted to make my own plugin to daisy chain.. even then you need to have the sound already there to adapt the poles of the IIR -- even if someone developed a tool todo it.. not as easy as playing with resistors and solder or replacing a tube.

 

[Nightside]

Yeah I don't get any of the noise and hum with the Spider that I was getting with everything else solid state or tubes. Plus tube amps are just waiting for the right moment to murder you if you have problems grounding them.

 

[narad]

How can tube amps be the new vinyl if I plug my vinyl player into a tube amp?

 

[Nightside]

Also I'm just sick and tired of spending lots of money on shit that winds up sounding very little if any better than what I was using before. I think that's the game with this music gear. They count on people buying cheap gear starting out and being frustrated with it because they sound like shit. So they blame their shitty cheap gear and decide they have to have a 4k tube stack or 4k cutting edge quantum computing modeler to sound good. When in reality they were just inexperienced and had no idea how to setup their cheap guitar or dial in their cheap amp.

I've seen too many people getting awesome tones out of a boosted Peavey Rage with a Jackson JS12. Or a Spider with a GIO. Getting the awesome sounds I always tried to get with expensive shit. I no longer believe the hype in expensive gear.

 

[NickK-UK]

Also I'm just sick and tired of spending lots of money on shit that winds up sounding very little if any better than what I was using before. I think that's the game with this music gear. They count on people buying cheap gear starting out and being frustrated with it because they sound like shit. So they blame their shitty cheap gear and decide they have to have a 4k tube stack or 4k cutting edge quantum computing modeler to sound good. When in reality they were just inexperienced and had no idea how to setup their cheap guitar or dial in their cheap amp.

I've seen too many people getting awesome tones out of a boosted Peavey Rage with a Jackson JS12. Or a Spider with a GIO. Getting the awesome sounds I always tried to get with expensive shit. I no longer believe the hype in expensive gear.

Bad workman blames their tools..

 

[MaxOfMetal]

The pot has been stirred. I'm riled up. Here we goooooooooooooooo.

Digital stuff is fine. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It comes with a certain level of convenience (and some of it's own problems/caveats).

I maintain the reason tubes aren't obsolete is because of the PLONK. You plonk it down, and it does what you need it to do, and it does so effortlessly. Every once in a while, I grab one of my tube heads, bring it to jam, and remind myself how it delivers with ease - even the small lunchbox head. You'll be heard, you'll sound good, it'll cut through, etc.

Modellers can do that too, if you get a strong enough power amp and match up the cab loads, if you spend the time crafting the preset, if you get the impedance curve setting right, if you've gain staged everything correctly, if you haven't shot yourself in the foot with the filters and effects on offer, etc etc.

Tube amps just don't have the ifs. Plonk, done, no meaningful ifs. You can even dial them horribly, and it'll still mostly just plonk and go.

But not every modeler is a floorboard or rackmount.

The Fender Tone Master combos are basically the original version of the amp made digital and which means you get creature comforts like silent recording, more I/O, lighter weight, lower maintenance, but without the option paralysis of endless models or the "fiddly-ness" of menu diving.

They were even smart and bumped up the wattage.

The second someone makes a 5150 version it's game over...well not actually, but you know I mean.

 

[Vyn]

When the airline lets me take a 50w Recto head on the plane to put in overhead luggage, then I'll go back to using real amps live.

Seriously though, if you're in a band that travels the last thing you want to have to deal with is moving heads and cabs. Been there done that, it's 2024, times have changed.

 

[SalsaWood]

If we're comparing a single modeler to a single amp it's like comparing an microwave oven to a brick oven. There are high and low quality versions of either, favored and obscure versions of either, but at the end of the day you're paying for practicality not higher quality/capability. The quality of modellers has been behind for decades, is now just becoming not disgusting in the last ~8 years or so, and as someone else stated already are an imitation by definition.

In hobbies there are lots of internal sects we call the "just as gud" crowd. That's modelers in music. It is just as gud, as long as you learn to live with it.

 

[Stiman]

But not every modeler is a floorboard or rackmount.

The Fender Tone Master combos are basically the original version of the amp made digital and which means you get creature comforts like silent recording, more I/O, lighter weight, lower maintenance, but without the option paralysis of endless models or the "fiddly-ness" of menu diving.

They were even smart and bumped up the wattage.

The second someone makes a 5150 version it's game over...well not actually, but you know I mean.

I like that idea a lot! I do hope they make a 5150 "Tone Master" combo amp (or head).

The price on those Fender Tone Master amps is really decent too IMO

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I like that idea a lot! I do hope they make a 5150 "Tone Master" combo amp (or head).

The price on those Fender Tone Master amps is really decent too IMO

They're pretty great too. Like a lot of folks I was pretty skeptical, especially because of the price, but they did it. Those TM Twins and Deluxes are awesome.

 

[Stiman]

And given that Fender owns the EVH/5150 stuff, there is nothing stoping them from doing it.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

And given that Fender owns the EVH/5150 stuff, there is nothing stoping them from doing it.

They don't actually own EVH, they have a manufacturing and marketing agreement with the brand. Just like Gretsch.

So someone like Wolfie would need to want it to happen.

 

[budda]

There will always be a place for things that are older, took more time and care to create, and are more analog. People just like that stuff.

NSLALP

 

[Seabeast2000]

I only listen to podcasts on vinyl so "no" Ultimate Guiar, just no.

 

[Shorts_Mike]

Digital will eventually win and relegate amps to a more specialized/niche market because of price and convenience, not because of their sound quality. Physical amps have a feel, reaction and depth to their tone that just hasn't been fully captured by digital alternatives (especially when experienced in person).

 

[TedEH]

But not every modeler is a floorboard or rackmount.

The Fender Tone Master combos

I didn't know there were combos - I thought the Tone Master was a floorboard and powered speaker combo, just like you'd do with a Helix and powercab or whatever matches that one.

It's weird to me that the "Tone Master Combo" isn't just a Tone Master jammed into a combo so that you don't need to buy the cab seperately. Why not put ALL the models in the combo? They used to do that with Line 6 stuff and behringer stuff before modelling got good, and now.... we stopped doing that? I don't get it. I could easily see a market for a single lightweight combo amp that's capable of being a 5150 and a Marshall and a Mesa and whatever other obscure thing at the press of a button without having to assemble the rig component-wise like you'd do now.

I'd still be concerned that a 100w solid-state combo driven by a digital model is still going to be eaten for lunch by the equivalent 100w tube combo. I know everyone loves to say a watt is a watt, but that's not a useful comparison. Tube watts are able to be driven above their rating, you're not "limited" to 100 watts on a 100 watt tube amp. Solid state watts have a hard cap on headroom instead. So the "usable" portion of those watts is not comparable. Tubes that "go to 11" will sound good when they reach 11. Solid state amps played at 11, if they don't die from some thermal protection feature, will sound like a gnarly farty clipped mess.

 

[Moongrum]

I guess tube amps are like vinyl, both are used by enthusiasts. No reason to not use what you like in your hobby. Some people like film photography, some people still like 2 stroke bikes, etc.

 

[MatrixClaw]

To be fair, even if they are like vinyl, I see way more people buying vinyl now than CDs or digital. Most people I know pay for a streaming service and then buy the albums they like on vinyl because they find the experience of listening to vinyl preferable, just as I think most people who have played a tube amp feel about them vs modelers. They may not be needed and they might be more expensive, but it's a cost people are willing to pay for the experience they enjoy.

I think the perception of both is very similar. People who have never heard vinyl assume it's better than digital because they've never experienced it and it has a reputation of being better. People who have experienced it collect it, can't afford it or don't have the space for it. Then there's the people who grew up with vinyl and don't understand why people nowadays love it so much when they can have everything at their fingertips.

 

[budda]

@TedEH because if you put all the models into the combo, lotta players will dismiss it an axe/helix/qc thing. Make it to do one thing properly and watch em move. And they move.

 

[budda]

To be fair, even if they are like vinyl, I see way more people buying vinyl now than CDs or digital. Most people I know pay for a streaming service and then buy the albums they like on vinyl because they find the experience of listening to vinyl preferable, just as I think most people who have played a tube amp feel about them vs modelers. They may not be needed and they might be more expensive, but it's a cost people are willing to pay for the experience they enjoy.

I bet if you more had friends who bought cd’s and avoided vinyl this would read different though. I pay for streaming to listen to cd’s im not digging out (and occasionally finally check out new releases and recs).