santiago, i feel you know your gear pretty good, so now i'm not sure
BBE Sonic Maximizer
- Thread starter David
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Rob and Matt from Chimaira used BBEs with the 5150 and it sounded great to me.
Drew
Forum MVP
I don't get the appeal of BBE's for guitarists, for more or less the reasons Santiago mentions.
It's a peice of gear originally designed for full mixes, either while mastering or in live reinforcement, that subtly delays the bass frequencies to reduuce phase cancellation and give the perception of clearer low end. It does something similar to the treble as well - not sure the exact details, but phase correction, basically, to make sure that the frequencies all arrive at the same time to your ear, regardless what those frequencies are.
This makes a lot of sense on a full mix, but essentially, while it's not an EQ in any traditional sense, most if not all of its effect is limited in the low bass and upper treble frequencies. A guitar, meanwhile, resides between maybe 120hz and 6-8khz, with some more stuff above and below that, but that's where the "meat" is. More importantly, that's the only place you want it to be - below that and you're clashing with the bass, above that and you're fighting the cymbols. So, this begs the question; while it might sound pretty badass on its own, when you're playing with a bassist and drummer, do you rerally WANT to be increasing the perception of those frequencies on a guitar?
To put it in perspective, depending on what the part's doing I usually have a high pass filter anywhere from 80-160hz on all my guitar tracks, and while I don't usually do much to the upper treble and presence, my guitar tone doesn't have a lot going on above 8-10k, and sometimes I'll roll a few decibels off rhythm guitars in the 6-8 range too, to add a little more space for other instruments (particularly acoustics or delay-y Ebow stuff). In short, the only place this thing would really be boosting the perceived impact of your guitar is exactly where you don't want it to.
To be fair, though, I've heard a lot of people using modeling rigs say they make more of an improvement there than with tube rigs...
It's a peice of gear originally designed for full mixes, either while mastering or in live reinforcement, that subtly delays the bass frequencies to reduuce phase cancellation and give the perception of clearer low end. It does something similar to the treble as well - not sure the exact details, but phase correction, basically, to make sure that the frequencies all arrive at the same time to your ear, regardless what those frequencies are.
This makes a lot of sense on a full mix, but essentially, while it's not an EQ in any traditional sense, most if not all of its effect is limited in the low bass and upper treble frequencies. A guitar, meanwhile, resides between maybe 120hz and 6-8khz, with some more stuff above and below that, but that's where the "meat" is. More importantly, that's the only place you want it to be - below that and you're clashing with the bass, above that and you're fighting the cymbols. So, this begs the question; while it might sound pretty badass on its own, when you're playing with a bassist and drummer, do you rerally WANT to be increasing the perception of those frequencies on a guitar?
To put it in perspective, depending on what the part's doing I usually have a high pass filter anywhere from 80-160hz on all my guitar tracks, and while I don't usually do much to the upper treble and presence, my guitar tone doesn't have a lot going on above 8-10k, and sometimes I'll roll a few decibels off rhythm guitars in the 6-8 range too, to add a little more space for other instruments (particularly acoustics or delay-y Ebow stuff). In short, the only place this thing would really be boosting the perceived impact of your guitar is exactly where you don't want it to.
To be fair, though, I've heard a lot of people using modeling rigs say they make more of an improvement there than with tube rigs...
I used to swear by BBE when I used Peavey and Line 6 gear - if you look back far enough through my posts I even said at one point that I would never play without it. I WAS SO WRONG. Sure, I will still use my BBE DI100X with the POX XTL if I end up playing out somewhere, but I tried the BBE with my Mark IV once, and immediately disconnected it and put it away.
The Mesa Mark IV is my dream amp and sounds perfect without ANY effects or additional processing. I've played it 100% dry since the day I brought it home. I'm completely blown away by the sound every time I fire it up.
The BBE didn't necessarily muddy it up, it actually made the tone abrasive, shrill, and painfully brittle. It was as if I were trying to put a tourniquet on an unwounded limb, effectively killing it.
BBE is GREAT for amps and modelers that replicate recorded tone because it adds back in to the mix a little bit of what the mics can't pick up in the studio. It makes my POD XTL sound phenomenal, but, and it is a big but, it is absolutely wrong with my Mark IV or any similar amp that can stand on its own without digital assistance.
The Mesa Mark IV is my dream amp and sounds perfect without ANY effects or additional processing. I've played it 100% dry since the day I brought it home. I'm completely blown away by the sound every time I fire it up.
The BBE didn't necessarily muddy it up, it actually made the tone abrasive, shrill, and painfully brittle. It was as if I were trying to put a tourniquet on an unwounded limb, effectively killing it.
BBE is GREAT for amps and modelers that replicate recorded tone because it adds back in to the mix a little bit of what the mics can't pick up in the studio. It makes my POD XTL sound phenomenal, but, and it is a big but, it is absolutely wrong with my Mark IV or any similar amp that can stand on its own without digital assistance.
so you guys would reccommend it for a pod xt then?
Drew
Forum MVP
"Recommend" is strong, but if you've got $50 to blow and a good enough ear to know if it's really making your tone "better" in a live situation and not just making frequencies you probably don't want louder, then you lose nothing by trying, I guess...
ahh! screw it, the reviews are too mixed on this to try it out, i'l check one out if i'm infront of one, but sounds like money could be better spent
Agreed. Tone is always a matter of preference. You may hate it. I recommend you not buy it before trying it.
482's are the beast deal if you do want one. Not the 482i, just 482. I was told by somebody from BBE that there is no difference other than the faceplate. Both versions of the 482 sound better with a guitar than a 362 because they actually enhance the mids and not just lows and highs. When I used one I just barely turned on the lo contour knob and turned up the process knob just a hair if at all, most of the time it was completely off. It's not fair to say they R t3h SuK!!!111!!111 Lots of people like them and lots of people achieve great tone with them I can remember when they were the greatest thing since sliced bread to guitarists and then all the sudden you're less of a man if you like them. I preferred my rig without it but again, some people achieve great tone with them. All I can say is get a 482 off ebay, they're cheap. If you don't like it resell it and make your money back.
I noticed this thread, i posted this right after i bought the one i had. Disregard that post, because, damnit, after owning one for a month or two, i realized how quickly the 'tone' wore off. the initial impression is usually like "Wow" but the more i messed with it, the more i realized i didnt like how it made my amp react.
Roger's also said in other threads that its a "Band aid for bad gear" Which i kind of have to agree with. as i upgraded my pre-amp and other gear, i used the BBE less and less till i just didnt use it at all.
Roger's also said in other threads that its a "Band aid for bad gear" Which i kind of have to agree with. as i upgraded my pre-amp and other gear, i used the BBE less and less till i just didnt use it at all.
Meh, I think they sound good with some amps, I just didn't like it with my Mesa. I like the way 5150s sound with them, coincidentally I don't like the way 5150s sound stock without band-aids. They sound REALLY good with modeling amps!
Yea, it does work better with solid state for the most part but some tube amps do benefit from them. As I said before I LOVE 5150s with them in the loop and I don't like 5150s without them. I have a friend with a TSL and it sounds pretty good with it as well. I think upper mid heavy amps may be the variable. The BBE takes away a mid frequency that I don't like! If said frequency is not prevalent in said amp to begin with then I don't like what BBEs do to them. Honestly, I'm a tone snob that has spent nearly 16 years searching for the perfect metal tone and since we have almost identical tastes in music I think you'd be doing yourself a favor to try one with your 5150. They're one of two tube amps out there that I think they work well with.
7 Dying Trees
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Have heard the BBE played by someone else, and to be honest, really don't notice that much difference, and don't see the point really... I used to really want one, but the more i've looked at it, the less i've felt the need for one.
Thanks... I used them before when I had the RACK going on. I had one for a while then i said ......BYPASS!
It does help boost and add a certain "wow" but once you are playing with a drummer and his cymbal work is smashing and his double bass is cooking your tone goes to .......MUD.
Better yet "SH SH SH SH" as oposed to CHUG CHUG CHUG...You get my drift?
The BBE is great for the bedroom to sound "better" but honestly its going to take away from your clarity.
Yes...it does in a sense bring your Highs back in and adds more high & Low end its sort of like ..."Instant MASTERING" But do you want instant Mastering all the time?
Do the test for yourself get one and then plug in and play with a drummer see what happens....
Let me ask you do you see VAI have one in his live rig? Satch? EVH?
NOPE
Santiago
Tone is a matter of preference but Cutting through in a mix is a matter of understaning frequencies....
If you cutt through in your live sound amongst your drummer & bass chances are you have "Good" tone....
Which is beyond "subjectivity".
This is why I disagree a lot of times when people say they have good tone yet when they play with their band you can't hear them...
The minute the bass drums are FLYING at 180 - 200bpms and the double ride is cruising as well or the chinas are smashing if you have no mids and too much high and too much bass....you can kiss your "Tone" Good bye.
peace
Santiago
Donnie
Forum MVP
Nice. You just explained my feelings about BBE's perfectly with that statement. I use to love them but after I really started to play out live back in about 1998, I realized that it was just killing my tone.
