Canadian Politics

[TedEH]

Are things getting visibly worse since some of the new language laws kicked in June?

I think it is. Our company was forced to have a "francization" comity. We're also required to report to the government whoever doesn't speak french. That..... is a very uncomfortable idea. People I've spoken with are confused about what the law actually expects. Some think it's a simple percentage, some believe they're given names. I think the vagueness is intentional.

Consider for a moment, that when asked about it, Jean-François Roberge had to be explicit that "We are not doing cards or certificates or anything like that", when referring to identifying who gets certain exceptions allowing anglophones to speak english in government communications. Like, why even bring that up if it's not a concern? How do you reach the conclusion that you need to clarify something like that without stopping to introspect about how you got to that in the first place?

 

[thebeesknees22]

I think it is. Our company was forced to have a "francization" comity. We're also required to report to the government whoever doesn't speak french. That..... is a very uncomfortable idea. People I've spoken with are confused about what the law actually expects. Some think it's a simple percentage, some believe they're given names. I think the vagueness is intentional.

Consider for a moment, that when asked about it, Jean-François Roberge had to be explicit that "We are not doing cards or certificates or anything like that", when referring to identifying who gets certain exceptions allowing anglophones to speak english in government communications. Like, why even bring that up if it's not a concern? How do you reach the conclusion that you need to clarify something like that without stopping to introspect about how you got to that in the first place?

oof... I was afraid of that.

Good luck my friend. Hope things don't get too crazy.

 

[zappatton2]

I can't really speak to online commentary en français, since I (shamefully, having lived in Ottawa for 20+ years) still can't speak the language. That said, things there do seem to be getting a little beyond the pale. Hell, when they were targeting women in hijabs in public roles, that should have been a sign something was deeply amiss (shades of Harper's own tussles with our Charter).

It's unfortunate that using the insecurity of some around their cultural identity has been such an effective cudgel against the rights of both ethnic and linguistic minorities in Quebec. I do think it might be time for the Feds to revisit some of the conditions around the notwithstanding clause. Unfortunately, as a minority who will likely get no traction from the Cons or the NDP on that front, and with many a vulnerable seat in Quebec, I don't think they want to touch it with a 10 foot pole.

 

[soliloquy]

But this isn't France, it's Quebec. Nobody is at war here. It's literally just people trying to live out their lives like normal people, while a bunch of politicians decide that our schools should be taken away, and our right to be able to understand communication with the government is being taken away. And like you say - France, as far as I'm aware, doesn't pull "but they're trying to replace us" whenever someone speaks another language. And while it's pointed at Anglophones - there's whole cans of worms to open about what the natives might have to say about it.


The problem is that it's not going to happen any time soon - because it splits the non-conservative vote, and too many people vote for "anything but the conservatives" - which ultimately means conceding that anything but a liberal vote is throwing the vote away because the more you split the vote, the more you concede to conservatives. It's a stupid system.

IMO, pretty much all western politics at this point have split themselves pretty clearly into two camps. Conservatives I think know this, and so they stick with "their team" for the most part so that their team wins. They have power in numbers that way. The Canadian left on the other hand gets bogged down in the details about what's ideal and as a result end up conceding what's possible in the moment. And so, just like in the US, you don't actually have to be popular to win, and everyone just goes in circles pulling back and forth making no real improvements, and the occasional awful thing or scandal slipping through.

I agree that they aren't at war.
What I meant is that because they were at war for so long, their cultures morphed and internalized their 'frenchness' which was translated to Quebec.

They let people exist without speaking French, to them, may mean 'we are being less french. Without our language, we are not 'french'.

Mind you, I'm not agreeing with that idea. And I'm certainly not defending it. I'm just thinking that some of that might be going on in their heads, that the idea of being french is more important than being Canadian. Assimilation, or gtfo.

 

[thebeesknees22]

I agree that they aren't at war.
What I meant is that because they were at war for so long, their cultures morphed and internalized their 'frenchness' which was translated to Quebec.

They let people exist without speaking French, to them, may mean 'we are being less french. Without our language, we are not 'french'.

Mind you, I'm not agreeing with that idea. And I'm certainly not defending it. I'm just thinking that some of that might be going on in their heads, that the idea of being french is more important than being Canadian. Assimilation, or gtfo.

I mean clearly since they tried to separate once already, the idea of being french takes precedence over being Canadian for a lot of them.

It wouldn't surprise me if they make a move to try and separate again at some point. It may be a decade or two from now, but they're laying the groundwork for it now. They'll just have to decide if they want to give up those Equalization payments or not.

Or they'll just try and be "independent but still part of canada" so they can still get the money. They're already starting to do that now.

 

[soliloquy]

I mean clearly since they tried to separate once already, the idea of being french takes precedence over being Canadian for a lot of them.

It wouldn't surprise me if they make a move to try and separate again at some point. It may be a decade or two from now, but they're laying the groundwork for it now. They'll just have to decide if they want to give up those Equalization payments or not.

Or they'll just try and be "independent but still part of canada" so they can still get the money. They're already starting to do that now.

*sigh
I hope that doesn't happen.

i know for certain that many aboriginal groups that reside within quebec were a BIG part of the reason why Quebec is still part of Canada right now. If Quebec kicks itself out of Canada, then those aboriginal groups within Quebec may have to relocate.

and IF it does happen, i assume all we need is another political issue (example: Lockdowns/vaccinations etc) come in, where Quebec feels cut off from the rest. Though, as stated above, i wont be surprised if the Federal government, or the judicial system does take issue with any of Quebec's policies, and determines them to be un-constitutional and/or going against the Charter of Rights and Freedom.

Rights and freedom...such a double edged sword now. Protect the rights of one group, and the other gets offended. Protect the offended, and the minority group gets offended....

how i dont envy politicians or their lives.

 

[budda]

Well they live very comfortably, dont get too pitiful .

Anyone follow the oh canada project on IG?

 

[soliloquy]

Well they live very comfortably, dont get too pitiful .

Anyone follow the oh canada project on IG?

they may live comfortably, but in light with JT and Sophie T's separation, and the fact that he's in various corners of the world every day, and constantly on the road; dealing with heavy topics and trying to find solutions to these complex problems...i cant imagine being a 'Qualified' politician would ever be an easy/cushy job.

keyword being 'qualified' (i'm looking at you, US....)

and i'm hardly on insta. Whats this Oh Canada project you speak of?

 

[budda]

I’ll find a link when my home internet isnt trash.

 

[soliloquy]

I’ll find a link when my home internet isnt trash.

sort of a political statement.
my job deals with a LOT of new comers to the country. One of their many complaints: why does our internet service suck so much? And if it doesn't suck, why does it cost so much? (Rogers...) and if it doesn't cost too much, why is there a long term commitment with them?

even if they are coming from developing countries, where they may experience power outage, they can easily change to use their phone data, which is also provided at minimal fee.

 

[budda]

Yep our telecomm is a joke.

 

[thebeesknees22]

sort of a political statement.
my job deals with a LOT of new comers to the country. One of their many complaints: why does our internet service suck so much? And if it doesn't suck, why does it cost so much? (Rogers...) and if it doesn't cost too much, why is there a long term commitment with them?

even if they are coming from developing countries, where they may experience power outage, they can easily change to use their phone data, which is also provided at minimal fee.

I'm paying about the same for internet here in atlanta vs what i paid in MTL and it's like 5x's faster. And I had the cheapest internet i could find at the time in MTL.

I also get unlimited data on my mobile for less than what 10Gb was in Canada....yeaah... ..yeaaahhh....

 

[budda]

I always wonder, if more Canadians knew how badly we have it, would we still just take it on the chin?

 

[TedEH]

the idea of being french takes precedence over being Canadian for a lot of them

I thought that was a given. Our neighbours, when I was young, used to threaten us because we hung a Canadian flag instead of a Quebec flag. It was only "Ok" in their books, if the Quebec flag flew above the Canadian one.

If Quebec kicks itself out of Canada, then those aboriginal groups within Quebec may have to relocate.

It'll be a disaster on all kinds of fronts. It'll screw over minorities, turn areas like Outaouais that have such close ties to Ontario into something between awkward heated areas and warzones, decimate business that primarily operated in english all over the province ('cause lets not kid ourselves, TONS of business in Quebec is operated in english), and enable the worst elements of the provinces nationalism to start, for lack of a better phrasing, saying the quiet parts out loud.

would we still just take it on the chin?

Yeah, probably. Saying "sorry" before politely requesting any consolation really takes the steam out of it.

 

[soliloquy]

I always wonder, if more Canadians knew how badly we have it, would we still just take it on the chin?

I want to say 'yes', but i'm not entirely sure.

was having this debate with bunch of folks yesterday regarding refugees in Canada, especially in Southern Ontario.

the folks were very disappointed in JT for how refugees are being treated in Canada. That JT promised them a safe place in Canada, and yet the reality is that they are sleeping on the streets, or church pews, and continue waiting for government(s) to kick in and start housing them accordingly.

Though that is true that refugees are waiting for a better system to kick in, compare that to EVERY country that is touching the Mediterranean sea.

Though Canada might be playing 'hot potato' between the Fed and Prov governments to find a better solution for them, pretty much every country in the Mediterranean is turning a blind eye to the crisis there. Pretty much every week we are getting news articles of refugee boats that shouldn't hold anymore than 100-200 people are capsizing with 400-900 people. all of them are either disappearing into the water, or washing up on shore.

EU, as a whole, appears to claim that 'its not our problem because Greece is saying they have had no report regarding this' while Tunisia and Libya are picking up bodies from the shores constantly.

By contrast, Canada appears to be in a better place to take care of refugees. We aren't doing the 'best' job possible, but perhaps we aren't responsible for their deaths either?

additionally, we do have a lot of other things going for us that MANY parts of the world dont have: Clean drinking water (though parts of canada, especially where the aboriginal reserves are cant say the same); men, women and transgendered people have the same rights and freedoms; we can live with dignity; relatively moderate/safe/stable job security and economy; we dont have to worry about a bomb dropping on us randomly; gun laws are relatively strict, so we dont have to worry about our kids saftey at school; health care (not focusing on the collapsing health system and long wait); we have clean air (relatively, and disregarding the forest fires this year); we have the right to buy a home (not accounting for how expensive they are, but we do have that option of home ownership. Many middle eastern countries, for example, only let 'ex-pats' rent till they die. Even if you were born/raised there); we can get citizenship in this country in as short a time as 3ish years, where as other parts of the world, you can continue living there and building the economy for 30 plus years and still be considered as 'not one of us'....etc etc etc...

are we perfect? nope. are we better off comparing to many other parts of the world? I hope that is an astounding 'YES' from everyone, conservative, liberal, or anything in between.

​

 

[Xaios]

Pretty much every Canadian subreddit, for example, seems to be chock full of very conservative views.

r/onguardforthee is the most left-leaning Canadian subreddit, and does a decent job of keeping out the bigotry.

 

[TedEH]

r/onguardforthee is the most left-leaning Canadian subreddit, and does a decent job of keeping out the bigotry.

I think this is the kinds of answer I was hoping for. I know reddit is reaaaaally bad for trapping you in bubbles once you've stepped a tiny bit into a community somewhere. The whole "you've visited communities like this" recommendations are really good at pushing biases.

 

[soliloquy]

anything online is very dangerous.
if you have a certain bias, you will find it online, and it will allow you to continue existing in your bubble.

and in the event its a bad bias (as an example, say my view is that people from X country are bad. Essentially i'm racist), then online will find me those pages and will allow me to stay in that ignorant bubble, further validating my BS views.

its scary.

 

[soliloquy]

well, thats disappointing.

Ontario just called Ford out for trying to attach the greenbelt, when that is NOT required to house the additional population. End result: "yes, we acknowledge we could have done a better job, but the greenbelt is still going."

why is there no accountability here?

 

[zappatton2]

Yeah, Ford's a joke, completely in the back pocket of private contractors, public interest be damned.