Civility in OT

[Ordacleaphobia]

Maybe I'm just not going into the right threads, but as one of SSO's token 'conservatives,' I've seen overwhelmingly positive discourse. At least, compared to what you see everywhere else.

I think a lot of that comes down to the 'guitars first' point someone mentioned earlier, that this shared passion kind of acts as a glue to keep everyone together.
I know that even if I think X event is great but Y person thinks it's just awful, at the end of the day, I'm going to be stoked on Y's NGD and he'll be stoked on mine and 5 minutes later in a separate thread we'll be talking about specs and why used Prestiges are the best guitars for the money.

Personally, whenever I find myself in an argument here, even when things get heated (and they do, sometimes), I know that none of you guys are taking shots or getting big-headed and trust that people feel the same about me. From what I've seen, people here tend to err closer to 'debates' than 'arguments,' I see a lot of logic and willingness to accept that we may not know the whole story here. Humility and willing to admit you may be incorrect goes a long way and I've seen a lot of it here.
--
Granted, I steer clear of the politics subforum, which is where I'm sure most of the heat is generated.

 

[Edika]

The climate in Eurole has been changing the last decade and it has become more permissive for extreme right wing parties to gain more popularity. Unfortunately the center, center left and center right have done everything in their power to convince their electorate that they're all the same and corrupt. I assume this sounds quite familiar to our US members here. In some of the countries corruption is less and the situation is better but being in the EU they get affected by the shortcomings of the other countries. Or to make it more clear, their industry profits from the single market but the taxpayers, while they might have good jobs and a good income due to that, they get bombarded by negative press over the economically weaker countries in the EU.

I welcome a good discussion with people but I need arguments and an interaction with whom I discussing. If there is that then there's a thought process that can lead to different conclusions than usual. Opinions and ideas are great but to me facts are facts. There's always bias and different interpretation of facts but if there's no discussion then there's no exposure to different facts and viewpoints. If I hadn't mentioned that before, it is a bit difficult to do so over text and I'd prefer to have a few beers and speak in person with some of you guys, even if we disagree on most subjects. The interaction is different and it's there are less misconceptions and misrepresentations of ideas.

 

[TedEH]

willingness to accept that we may not know the whole story here

Had a good conversation with someone recently about how a lot of "debates" tend to be situations where everyone goes in unwilling to be convinced of anything. I know very well that I'm guilty of the same thing, but have been trying to make a point of allowing my opinion to change. It's happened here, and in conversations in other places, where I've sort of "switched sides" by the time the conversation was done, in the sense that I've learned something new and adapted my opinion. I know that a lot of people are unable or unwilling to do that kind of thing.

 

[synrgy]

^I continually look forward to that happening to me. IMHO, there's no point in having discussions if one doesn't want new perspectives. Might as well talk to inanimate objects, otherwise.

 

[Drew]

Granted, I steer clear of the politics subforum, which is where I'm sure most of the heat is generated.

Shit, you're a conservative, and you just stated an argument politely using three arguments. PLEASE join in the discussion in the politics sub-forum. We could use something other than the typical Trump supporter trolling.

 

[Cynicanal]

I do wish we had more honest-to-god conservatives here, but I think the problem now is that in the Trump era, that sort of name-calling and bomb-throwing is becoming the norm, so the odds of finding someone who supports Trump who's willing to discuss his views without just falling back on name-calling are getting increasingly small.

There's more of us than you think; we just all know it's pointless to discuss politics in 2018 with liberals because they just call you a Nazi.

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

Had a good conversation with someone recently about how a lot of "debates" tend to be situations where everyone goes in unwilling to be convinced of anything. I know very well that I'm guilty of the same thing, but have been trying to make a point of allowing my opinion to change. It's happened here, and in conversations in other places, where I've sort of "switched sides" by the time the conversation was done, in the sense that I've learned something new and adapted my opinion. I know that a lot of people are unable or unwilling to do that kind of thing.

The thing about discussions on politics or politicized issues is that sometimes people forget that just about everybody is "pro good things, anti bad things."
I agree with an incredible amount of stuff that the left is saying.
I also agree with an incredible amount of what the right has to say, because they're all basically saying the same thing- it's just two different takes on how to solve a problem.

Take immigration for example.
You aren't arguing "are mexicans good." That's just idiotic.
You're talking about how to ensure that all immigrants that come in through the border are properly documented, that they're vetted properly, able to make the trip safely, will be able to comfortably integrate, that they're going to pay taxes and contribute to society, etc. Boiling it down to a cable news headline like "NEW RACIST LAW SEPARATES FAMILY AT BORDER" is ridiculous. The actual democrats in your government don't think that way. They want all the same shit. But the spin just takes any issue along for a ride over the top. So when people digest that content, especially those that don't really have the time or will to read deeper into the issues, why wouldn't they think the worst?

It's why I try to avoid politics talk. Too many cooks in the kitchen but no one even knows the recipe.

 

[TedEH]

it's pointless to discuss politics in 2018 with liberals because they just call you a Nazi.

To be fair, this statement is doing the same thing. You can't discuss something with a person who has already resolved that your point of view is worthless. I disagree with a lot of the extreme left side of a lot of political conversations, but it grinds my gears when people just say "the liberals all just [x]" as if there's only one liberal view point and none of it is reasonable. I get annoyed at a lot of liberal ways of thinking as well, but I get *equally* annoyed at things getting dismissed with "those stupid liberals".

The thing about discussions on politics or politicized issues is that sometimes people forget that just about everybody is "pro good things, anti bad things."
I agree with an incredible amount of stuff that the left is saying.
I also agree with an incredible amount of what the right has to say

100% this. I try sooooooo hard to stay away from the constant us-vs-them mentality that everyone bakes into their politics. Everyone claiming that everyone else is antagonizing them by virtue of having slightly different views- but denying that "slightly different views" are a thing and declaring that any difference of opinion makes people immediately polar opposites. I came across an article the other day (from a Gawker site, if that tells you anything) where they defined part of the mission of the site in terms of making "bad guys" out of anyone who doesn't stand strongly and firmly within their circles:

We consider anyone standing in the way of beneficial material change for everyone to be an adversary—so, the obvious villains (millionaires, conservatives, the Trump administration), but also mealy-mouthed moderates[...]

This is not how any progress is made.

 

[Drew]

There's more of us than you think; we just all know it's pointless to discuss politics in 2018 with liberals because they just call you a Nazi.

Yeah, what TedEH said - accusing the other side of name-calling is hardly a way to start a civil discussion.

Also, considering that we're at a time in American history where white nationalism is on the rise and we had protesters in Charlottsville chanting "blood and soil" less than a year ago, it's not like the left isn't at least occasionally correct, you know? If the right doesn't want to be accused of being in bed with neo-Nazis, then they could do a lot more to distance themselves from hate groups. One of the things I really wish we did have more articulate, thoughtful conservatives participating in discussions here is because I think we as a nation really DO need to hear more condemnation from the right about this stuff, and they're the ones we need to have doing it.

But, let me guess, antifa.

 

[TedEH]

I honestly think we'd make a lot more progress if we just dropped the left and right labels overall. That's a very un-politically-educated opinion, I know, but that seems to be the line where discussion ends. People and opinions and situations and the world as a whole are nuanced - left vs right is not.

 

[Andrew Lloyd Webber]

Yeah, what TedEH said - accusing the other side of name-calling is hardly a way to start a civil discussion.

Also, considering that we're at a time in American history where white nationalism is on the rise and we had protesters in Charlottsville chanting "blood and soil" less than a year ago, it's not like the left isn't at least occasionally correct, you know? If the right doesn't want to be accused of being in bed with neo-Nazis, then they could do a lot more to distance themselves from hate groups. One of the things I really wish we did have more articulate, thoughtful conservatives participating in discussions here is because I think we as a nation really DO need to hear more condemnation from the right about this stuff, and they're the ones we need to have doing it.

Perhaps the problem is not that not enough people are searching for this quality of discourse in sevenstring.org, but that anyone would.

 

[eaeolian]

I've thought about just banning everyone that posts there. It was a bad idea when we started it, and it's remained so. This place and MG are two of the last of few forums I'm aware of that even have an off-topic anymore, because no one understand netiquette anymore.

 

[Andrew Lloyd Webber]

I've thought about just banning everyone that posts there. It was a bad idea when we started it, and it's remained so.

Extend this to describe the entire site and you’re on the money.

 

[tedtan]

The thing about discussions on politics or politicized issues is that sometimes people forget that just about everybody is "pro good things, anti bad things."
I agree with an incredible amount of stuff that the left is saying.
I also agree with an incredible amount of what the right has to say, because they're all basically saying the same thing- it's just two different takes on how to solve a problem.

In general, I do agree with this.

Take immigration for example.
You aren't arguing "are mexicans good." That's just idiotic.

I do have to disagree with this, however. Trump himself said:

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best,” he said in the same speech. “They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

So there are people from the top of the US government on down arguing that the Mexican people, at least the ones coming to the US, are not good. I'l agree with you again that it is idiotic, but it is happening.

 

[Cynicanal]

To be fair, this statement is doing the same thing. You can't discuss something with a person who has already resolved that your point of view is worthless. I disagree with a lot of the extreme left side of a lot of political conversations, but it grinds my gears when people just say "the liberals all just [x]" as if there's only one liberal view point and none of it is reasonable. I get annoyed at a lot of liberal ways of thinking as well, but I get *equally* annoyed at things getting dismissed with "those stupid liberals".

Sounds like all the more reason we shouldn't bother with political discussion!

 

[Drew]

Eh, "politics" is basically the catch-all for what power we give to our government and whose interests we think they should prioritize. That's kind of an important discussion to have, you know?

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

I do have to disagree with this, however. Trump himself said: [Famous Mexico quote]
So there are people from the top of the US government on down arguing that the Mexican people, at least the ones coming to the US, are not good. I'l agree with you again that it is idiotic, but it is happening.

This is what I'm talking about. There's no nuance, and I think this is why a lot of people have such strong opinions about the cheetopope; he's a really terrible spokesman.
See, it's clear to me, *perhaps* through projecting my own values, that that quote was addressing the very real issue of cartel trafficking across the border- compounded by the fact that some illegals do commit violent crimes against taxpaying citizens. The Don is just pulling the same garbage that you see on cable news, he's pulling a spin job to make something sound sensational. It's bullshit of the same flavor. You take a real issue and blow it out of proportion to incite both sides.

And then I'm sitting here looking at the substance behind the quote, and I feel like I'm talking to myself because nobody wants to talk about the actual underlying issue.
Nobody honestly believes that there's a high level right-wing conspiracy to keep mexicans from getting into the US, right?

Yeah, what TedEH said - accusing the other side of name-calling is hardly a way to start a civil discussion.

Also, considering that we're at a time in American history where white nationalism is on the rise and we had protesters in Charlottsville chanting "blood and soil" less than a year ago, it's not like the left isn't at least occasionally correct, you know? If the right doesn't want to be accused of being in bed with neo-Nazis, then they could do a lot more to distance themselves from hate groups. One of the things I really wish we did have more articulate, thoughtful conservatives participating in discussions here is because I think we as a nation really DO need to hear more condemnation from the right about this stuff, and they're the ones we need to have doing it.

Drew, I'm not sure if you're talking entirely within the scope of this site, but in general the right is absurdly outspoken on these issues. Perhaps you simply aren't looking in the right places.

Extend this to describe the entire site and you’re on the money.

And yet you still post here.
jk alw pls dont leave I actually really enjoy your shitposting

 

[jaxadam]

I've thought about just banning everyone that posts there. It was a bad idea when we started it, and it's remained so. This place and MG are two of the last of few forums I'm aware of that even have an off-topic anymore, because no one understand netiquette anymore.

Ban ‘em all, let God sort ‘em out!

 

[Drew]

Drew, I'm not sure if you're talking entirely within the scope of this site, but in general the right is absurdly outspoken on these issues. Perhaps you simply aren't looking in the right places.

Hey, if you want to point me anywhere in particular, I'm all ears.

But, my perception has been that the response from the right to Charlottesville has been a mix of Trump's condemning violence "on both sides" and that there were "many fine people" marching, and of "whatabout antifa?" Which, IMO, kind of misses the point where we're talking about a march of white supremacists chanting Nazi slogans and advocating for a white ethno-state.

And, just to be extra clear, I DON'T think that's a "conservative" position, nor do I think if you're a republican your a Nazi, as Cynicanal thinks. I just think condemning neo-Nazis marching on the streets of America in broad daylight should be something of a slam-dunk for someone of ANY political orientation, and yet the number of prominent Republicans who were muted or conspicuously silent in criticizing Trump's response, and Fox mostly just talked about antifa or changed the subject.

Idunno. Maybe I am looking at the wrong places, I mostly read the Times, WaPo, and various financial media outlets, but I feel like the GOP has been very reluctant to take on Trump when he's taking some of his more overtly racist-seeming positions, and while I strongly suspect that's pure electoral calculus more than it is sympathy with his positions, I just feel like he's been able to shift the boundaries of whats acceptable a fair amount in the past 18 months. I'll be happy to read anything you suggest, however.

And then I'm sitting here looking at the substance behind the quote, and I feel like I'm talking to myself because nobody wants to talk about the actual underlying issue. Nobody honestly believes that there's a high level right-wing conspiracy to keep mexicans from getting into the US, right?

Actually, yeah - over and above his policies on illegal immigration, the Trump Administration is imposing the most restrictive policies and quotias on legal immigration that we've seen in something like 40 years. The most simple explanation is the administration is trying to reduce immigration in ALL forms as far as they can.

 

[tedtan]

This is what I'm talking about. There's no nuance, and I think this is why a lot of people have such strong opinions about the cheetopope; he's a really terrible spokesman.
See, it's clear to me, *perhaps* through projecting my own values, that that quote was addressing the very real issue of cartel trafficking across the border- compounded by the fact that some illegals do commit violent crimes against taxpaying citizens. The Don is just pulling the same garbage that you see on cable news, he's pulling a spin job to make something sound sensational. It's bullshit of the same flavor. You take a real issue and blow it out of proportion to incite both sides.

And then I'm sitting here looking at the substance behind the quote, and I feel like I'm talking to myself because nobody wants to talk about the actual underlying issue.
Nobody honestly believes that there's a high level right-wing conspiracy to keep mexicans from getting into the US, right?

I wouldn't say that there is a "a high level right-wing conspiracy to keep mexicans from getting into the US", but there are certain groups with that agenda, such as the white supremacists Drew mentioned who marched in Charlottesville, that Trump refused to condemn. And far right fringe elements such as former Trump strategist Steve Bannon (founder of Breitbart) is definitely a nationalist and most probably, based on his actions, a racist, though I don't have hard proof of that.

So while I wouldn't suggest that there is an overall conspiracy on the part of conservatives, keep in mind that it only take one turd in the punch bowl to spoil the punch.