dragonbiscuit
G.A.S. Therapist
As I expected - complete denial and unwillingness to admit what happened. C'est la vie. I'm done posting on this as well. Buyer beware. It's time for me to shut up and play my guitar
Claas custom headless NGD - review
- Thread starter dragonbiscuit
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links like Ebay, Amazon, and others.
This site may earn a commission from merchant links like Ebay, Amazon, and others.
I think I would stump up the airfare, fly over and smash that firewood into his face until he paid up in full!! That should have been scrapped before it was even finished let alone actually reaching the customer.
I know comments like this don't really help but FFS look at the damn thing, Alaxender you most certainly and not a Class act!
I know comments like this don't really help but FFS look at the damn thing, Alaxender you most certainly and not a Class act!
Esp Griffyn
Play more music
You're right, that doesn't help at all. I like to think we can carry ourselves with a bit more dignity on this forum.
xwmucradiox
sweep.tap.sweep
This forum is loaded with guys who jump straight to murder fantasies over bad business transactions.
oniduder
HONKEY DONKEY
thank you for this, i was thinking of eventually paying the money for one of these, now i'm incredibly hesitant and won't i bet
thing is even on his website it looks like everything is off in the bridge area anyways? i could be wrong since i'm eye balling it and the guitars have a strange angle/curvature to them as is
but it looks like the individual saddles are all crooked ie not inline with the strings
idk man i'm sorry this happened to you, this has happened to me too, with someone who shall not be named, no not hufshid or whatever but really someone i care not talk about
anyways
thanks again
thing is even on his website it looks like everything is off in the bridge area anyways? i could be wrong since i'm eye balling it and the guitars have a strange angle/curvature to them as is
but it looks like the individual saddles are all crooked ie not inline with the strings
idk man i'm sorry this happened to you, this has happened to me too, with someone who shall not be named, no not hufshid or whatever but really someone i care not talk about
anyways
thanks again
asher
So Did We
Isn't this when you take it to PMs (or not, I guess) with dates of emails?
Oh well.
Allow me to take a crack at this, because this theme seems to appear on this forum quite regularly.
What's obvious, based on the OP's pictures, is that the builder's QC and attention to detail stops short of perfection. To some degree, in fairness, most builders stop short of perfection; it's just a matter of how far off that mark they land. In this particular case he's 'off' by a fairly, universally recognizably large margin.
That said, what missing from this discussion is something equally as subjective... the level of perfection expected by the customer. As horrifying as many of you might find this, the likelihood this is the first Claas to leave the factory like this is fairly low. Likewise, we know with certainty that this isn't the first Claas to make it into the hands of one of his customers. As such, there's a significant chance that the relative acceptance of said defects are more or less acceptable to the individual depending on who you ask. I know it's hard for most of us to imagine but I can totally see there being (call them less picky or call them naive) customers out there that effectively ignore, have no interest in reporting or outrightly don't care about the defects outlined here.
With all of those elements in mind (and I'd apply this same theme to pretty much any builder you find), the level of perfection which the builder deems acceptable and the expectations of the end user are two different variables with a rather broad range; the results clearly being compounded and proportionately varied.
When Claas says he's 'not aware' of the issues, whether he literally meant that or not, what he actually means is "I was not aware that I was shipping a guitar that bar below the standards of my customer" because we all know full well the actual work shown in the pictures had to have been seen while the guitar was being built.
I don't mean that as an excuse for Claas, but the fact that every brand that shows up on here has people that sing their praises and others that post guitars with INCREDIBLY evident flaws and 'bad experiences' leads me to believe, overall, there's clearly a significant mismatch in expectations among us; some of them more obvious, some of them less (Santuzzo, can you hear me?
)Anyway, OP's the one who spent the money, so best course of action is up to he (she?). What I will say, however, is there's no need for this to turn into another witch hunt. There's a line between being upset a guitar was delivered with unacceptable issues, and expecting the guy to let the guy keep the guitar AND give him a refund or, worse, threatening to 'fly over there and hit him in the face'.
What makes me sick is how this forum takes legitimate issues and complaints, and then twists them into a dogpile-fest; then everybody acts surprised when then builder gets mad and acts indigent. That same line of reasoning bears the same fruit no matter where in life you apply it.
As a reference to what I'm talking about...
Rational, tempered response.
'I don't like your product, I won't buy your product. Thank you to the information dispensed in this thread for helping in this decision.'
As such, that's one less customer for Claas and one more reminder why taking care of your customers (in business transactions) is important to maintaining business.
Worthless response. Rude, argumentative, combative and contributing literally nothing to the discussion; actually, significantly detracting from it instead.
Rational, tempered response.
'I don't like your product, I won't buy your product. Thank you to the information dispensed in this thread for helping in this decision.'
As such, that's one less customer for Claas and one more reminder why taking care of your customers (in business transactions) is important to maintaining business.
Worthless response. Rude, argumentative, combative and contributing literally nothing to the discussion; actually, significantly detracting from it instead.
I see what you mean about customer expectations. I didn't rage or insult him in my post. Just to clarify. I wasn't being nice but I was trying to be as respectful as can be with someone who, I think, just scammed a customer.
Typically what I'll think is, for 2500 bucks I can get a flawless high-end production model. The builder *should* (in my opinion, of course) build his guitars with the quality at least on par with production models in the same price range (or would you spend 4k on a custom that plays like a cheap asian import ?)
One thing I've learnt from being on SSO over the last years is this : NEVER. EVER. pay 100% of the price up front. it's an invitation to this kind of situation. I've said this before and I'll say it again in such threads because it's something more people need to be aware of.
Typically what I'll think is, for 2500 bucks I can get a flawless high-end production model. The builder *should* (in my opinion, of course) build his guitars with the quality at least on par with production models in the same price range (or would you spend 4k on a custom that plays like a cheap asian import ?)
One thing I've learnt from being on SSO over the last years is this : NEVER. EVER. pay 100% of the price up front. it's an invitation to this kind of situation. I've said this before and I'll say it again in such threads because it's something more people need to be aware of.
notasian
Well-Known Member
xwmucradiox
sweep.tap.sweep
Comparing a production model guitar to a hand-made one built by one guy is somewhat irrational. The production guitar, once you reach a certain price point, is much more likely to approach 'perfect' than the hand-made one. Mainly because the production guitar has each step performed by a person who just does that step and has a ton of experience performing it. The guy that installs frets has done 1000 fret jobs in the last year. The boutique builder has probably done 10. The finish guy has sprayed 500 guitars in the last month. The boutique builder has done maybe one. Every detail is like this. The one-man shop is a jack of all trades and master of none and very few of them deliver a product that is flawless. As Randy said above, its a matter of how far apart the buyer and builder's expectations are.
ElysianGuitars
Well-Known Member
I hate to be the one pointing this out, but I'm certain any builder could look at the pictures posted by Claas and see the issues.
I'll start with this one, probably the most obvious of the fretting problems:
Several crooked frets. There are grooves and sanding scratches in the scallops. There looks to be a some filler work done where the ebony and maple meet on the right side of the picture, and on the fret that is near the middle of the picture there appears to be some kind of break in the ebony. Whether this one shipped like this is unclear, since this is such an early shot, but it clearly shows issues happening early in the process. Issues happen, but how you deal with them is the most important bit, and they don't seem to be dealt with on the OP's guitar.
The pickups on this are horribly off center, and the bridge route is too big on the bottom side. The Sam Oliver inlay is very crooked (maybe by design, who knows) and the date inlay is way off center.
This one looks to have a divot where the zero fret meets. There's a spot of missing stain where the nut is on the treble side. There's a spot where the finish chipped above the nut. It's hard to say for sure, but the circle of the sun inlay looks like it may be broken.
The entire point where the neck and body wood meet is chewed up on this one. There's also a scratch in the middle of the back (just to the right of the neck heel).
Most of these arrows point to gaps in the binding. The circled area is literally split wood. One of the arrows on the truss rod cover point to a missing chunk of wood. The nut is undercut from the side of the neck/fretboard, and there's some nasty glue line there.
Quality control is one of the most important things among any profession, but especially high end guitar building. An instrument costing as much as this should not have such readily identifiable flaws.
Also, the pics that Claas posted himself of the OP guitar show that it shipped with no nut. All his other zero fret guitars look to have nuts.
I'll start with this one, probably the most obvious of the fretting problems:
Several crooked frets. There are grooves and sanding scratches in the scallops. There looks to be a some filler work done where the ebony and maple meet on the right side of the picture, and on the fret that is near the middle of the picture there appears to be some kind of break in the ebony. Whether this one shipped like this is unclear, since this is such an early shot, but it clearly shows issues happening early in the process. Issues happen, but how you deal with them is the most important bit, and they don't seem to be dealt with on the OP's guitar.
The pickups on this are horribly off center, and the bridge route is too big on the bottom side. The Sam Oliver inlay is very crooked (maybe by design, who knows) and the date inlay is way off center.
This one looks to have a divot where the zero fret meets. There's a spot of missing stain where the nut is on the treble side. There's a spot where the finish chipped above the nut. It's hard to say for sure, but the circle of the sun inlay looks like it may be broken.
The entire point where the neck and body wood meet is chewed up on this one. There's also a scratch in the middle of the back (just to the right of the neck heel).
Most of these arrows point to gaps in the binding. The circled area is literally split wood. One of the arrows on the truss rod cover point to a missing chunk of wood. The nut is undercut from the side of the neck/fretboard, and there's some nasty glue line there.
Quality control is one of the most important things among any profession, but especially high end guitar building. An instrument costing as much as this should not have such readily identifiable flaws.
Also, the pics that Claas posted himself of the OP guitar show that it shipped with no nut. All his other zero fret guitars look to have nuts.
Alex Kenivel
Stunt Guitar
I couldn't finish sliding through all the pictures.. I couldn't even read more than half of the OP. Just too sad. And I'm sorry if this post "doesn't help" or is "worthless"
I'm just sorry this happened. Sorry for both company and customer.
I'm just sorry this happened. Sorry for both company and customer.
I don't mean to pick on you or single you out. I didn't think your post was overly mean or unfair. Likewise, I'm not here to defend Claas; I don't know him and all I know (at this point) is as much as the rest of you, which is that he sent a guitar to a customer who's not happy with it (justifiably) and, so far, Claas hasn't done enough to satisfy that customer, or anybody else who's critical of his work based on the pictures and information posted.
I'm getting into the weeds on this one, but I'm going to 'pull rank' for a minute (as a moderator and as a longtime member, both).
I see that line on this forum ALL the time and that's a minefield of subjectivity.
You see that argument, you see the guitar in the OP and then we all start imagining all the Squier and Epiphones we've seen or picked up that had immaculate glossy paintjobs, (some) with acceptably clean fretwork, clean inlay work, etc. We envision those things and we're like "well, shit, for $2500 you should get that and so much more!".
The product you pickup and touch in the store is reflective of much more than just pricetag on the one guitar. I can tell you, as somebody who does repairs and some build work, I can't build a Squier Bullet Strat for myself for less than or even equal to what I can buy one for in the store (that's taking into account the 'dealer' and 'oem' type pricing I have access to) and it would take me nearly as long to build as a guitar I'd regularly sell to a customer for 20 times as much.
Production guitars have hundreds of thousands (and in some cases, millions) of dollars in machinery and materials dedicated to them, purpose designed to turn out THAT specific model of guitar 'glossy, polished, playable' on the cheap. In particular, things such as the woods and paints they use are targeted toward being able to turn out the guitar 'quick' and have it looking flawless, without having to do hours of pore filling, and resanding, sealing, coating, wet sanding and buffing, like a one-man shop does. The same goes for the machines or purpose building tools they have available in the factory that turn out barb-less lengths of fretwire at exactly the right width for every fret before the file even touches them.
There are a variety of these same things in pretty much ever step of building the guitar, some companies adhere or divert from these concepts more than others but consistently, you find these extremely expensive shortcuts throughout.
As such, the final result is very impressive for the price but if you were to ask them to retool for a one-off type design, that's a few million dollars and several thousand man-hours of retooling to fit. In a custom setting, you trade consistency in exchange for versatility. Some custom shops can turn out better quality more consistently, but that typically comes at the expense of either price or flexibility.
Anyway, like I said, this is in the weeds. The stuff you see in the Claas complaints go beyond anything I'm talking about here, but the theme and the idea still bears mentioning...
Thinking every luthier that pops up on SSO is going to turn out an instrument that's 'just like the one Ibanez spent 10 million dollars developing, but the shape I want, with the woods I want, with all the features I want, made by one guy who's only job is this; and for $2000 or less' is unrealistic and, pardon if this sounds insulting, stupid.
Again, I don't mean that this necessarily applies to Claas, but EVERY thread about issues somebody has with a guitar, the OP has their own right to complaints but reaction and expectations of some of the people that chime are so delusion, and only interested in feigning superiority that it only contributes to misinformation and perpetuates the real problems going on here by moving the goal further and further.
I can agree on that. Frankly, 2500 bucks for a full custom DOES sound cheap. the "I want a Lamborghini for the price of a Volvo" seems to be a biproduct of small builders offering nice looking stuff for so cheap (the "too good to be true" effect) so that they get flooded with orders and can start to cash in.
Let's say it like this. As a customer, if I ordered a custom guitar I'd want it to be flawless. What I'm gonna say might sound weird, but if "flawless" means it will cost 5 grand (because tools, build time, materials etc) then the builder *shouldn't* sell the guitars for less. Because that makes the customers believe they can get 5 grand worth of quality for only half of that, and then we get a shitstorm. It's all weird, because if the builder says "well if you want a great guitar it costs a lot" it scares customers away, and when the builder says "you can get it for cheap" the customer ends up with something worse than he thought he paid for.
Sounds kind of a lose-lose situation for me, but I don't have a much better idea how to do it either.
Let's say it like this. As a customer, if I ordered a custom guitar I'd want it to be flawless. What I'm gonna say might sound weird, but if "flawless" means it will cost 5 grand (because tools, build time, materials etc) then the builder *shouldn't* sell the guitars for less. Because that makes the customers believe they can get 5 grand worth of quality for only half of that, and then we get a shitstorm. It's all weird, because if the builder says "well if you want a great guitar it costs a lot" it scares customers away, and when the builder says "you can get it for cheap" the customer ends up with something worse than he thought he paid for.
Sounds kind of a lose-lose situation for me, but I don't have a much better idea how to do it either.
Jonathan20022
Engineer
Seriously, he ....ed up but that's not a free pass for you guys to start flinging shit all over. Threatening the guy is a surefire way to get someone to not resolve things well.
Legit problems or not, this is completely unhelpful
and the QC on the message was clearly below the level of acceptable standards. It may have been up to the standards of other readers, but it was clearly not up to the level expected by this reader. [
for the humor impaired]
narad
Progressive metal and politics
As the guy that probably posts the most positive feedback in the Claas thread and someone that was definitely eyeing these, make that two less customers.
Mmm, sorry, two fewer customers. I have to keep my QC up.
Konfyouzd
Return of the Dread-I
Anything I can say about the guitar itself or the way the situation was handled has already been said... So I'll just leave this here... It's what your comment reminded me of...
Musiscience
Well-Known Member
Most probably because a lot of people on this forum got deceived by builders and lost a lot of money they worked hard to earn. BRJ, DAR amps, Sherman Guitars, Strictly 7 and the list goes on and on. I think on this forum there is a lot of guitar enthusiasts who really like to support young businesses and innovative ideas/designs but get burned in the process very often. Who is a fool in this situation, the builder who deliver a subpar product or just disappear with the money, or the customer who repeat the same mistake hoping that this time, or builder, will be better? For my part I think it's the builder, since he offer a service for money that he never truly delivers as negotiated, and that makes me sad.
Thought of the day : isn't this whole small builder thing very similar to stock exchange? When you invest in a small builder, there is more risk than investing in, let's say, a gibson Les Paul standard, but for the same price you might get a product that is absolutely outstanding just like you might loose money compared to guitars of the same price or even loose it all. To continue the parallel, if you invest in an ESP custom shop, you will have a very low risk of having a bad product, but you will not gain on the quality/price ratio since it will cost you an arm and you will not gain on the resale. Just a thought, and I might be way off track, but oh well make what you want of it
