Cloning Ibanez specs w/ different woods: Unethical?

[Andromalia]

How would you feel if you wrote some riffs with your band, and a few months later, one of your bandmates leaves, joins another band and uses those same riffs in their songs? You'd be pretty upset.

If I were getting James Hetfield's paychecks I would certainly not.

I think the ethical line is when you stop wanting to own a guitar and start thinking about earning or saving money. If i want a RG 1527 clone with an ebony fingerboard and Ibanez doesn't make it, I'd have no qualms copying it for myself since Ibanez won't sell anything like it to me.

 

[Floppystrings]

Didn't Ibanez copy tons of guitars in the early days? Les Pauls, Rickenbackers, Strats etc.

 

[BangandBreach]

Didn't Ibanez copy tons of guitars in the early days? Les Pauls, Rickenbackers, Strats etc.

At what point do two wrongs make a right?

 

[Floppystrings]

At what point do two wrongs make a right?

Have you guys ever heard of Warmoth? Are all of their customers thieves in your eyes?

Slash has Les Paul copies. Buckethead had his original white les paul copy made by the Jackson custom shop. Billy Gibbons has Les Paul copies as well right at this very moment on tour.

 

[MJS]

My question is, would it be somehow unethical to give these guitars to a competent luthier to make clones in terms of measurements, but different woods/bridges/etc?

Nope, not at all... go for it.

 

[murda_jr427]

Personally, I think you'd be fine. There's no way you could get a luthier to make a guitar with the EXACT specifications as something that ibanez has produced. There's going to be differences somewhere. As long as you're not going around saying that you have a super private stock LACS Ibanez, and slap an ibanez logo on there I think you'd be fine.

My first build was essentially a remake of an rg7321 with an Ash body and quilted maple top. Heck, I even used the Ibanez neck off an rg7321 and I feel fine about it. Just don't go around trying to sell it as an official ibanez product, and you'll be fine.

 

[Konfyouzd]

Doesn't that Roter dude build Ibby look-alikes all the time? Several members on here have built Ibby look-alikes as well. I think I saw someone on here build neckthru RGA7 looking thing.

 

[ZackP3750]

I highly doubt Ibanez will go through the trouble of taking legal action for making a superstrat similar-looking to theirs. Its just too common of a shape to have any legal recourse against the builder (hence all the strat and LP copies).

As for the ethical aspect, its taking someone else's idea and replicating it. You're not making money off it, you're using it for personal enjoyment, and (most importantly) its something you will NEVER be able to find otherwise. You're not damaging anyone, so I personally don't see the harm in this. But I am very interested to hear what Ibanez has to say about this.

 

[cyril v]

Doesn't that Roter dude build Ibby look-alikes all the time? Several members on here have built Ibby look-alikes as well. I think I saw someone on here build neckthru RGA7 looking thing.

That was the best looking "Ibby" I've ever seen.

he also had this multiscale RGD, unfinished though.

 

[Explorer]

In my opinion, the people against the idea of reproducing Ibanez-spec'd guitars have made much more sound arguments. So following their suggestions, I just sent this to Ibanez in an email:

(text which was missing the part about churning them out)

You'll all know their response as soon as I do...

So... you've abandoned your suggestion that someone "churn them out"? That was the part which struck me about the original post.

It's seemed that most of your questions have been regarding how to get around any repercussions arising from making copies. Is it okay to churn out copies? How many changes do I have to make to protect myself while churning them out?

Even your email makes it sound like you're altering your story in order to gain approval of this idea.

 

[BigPhi84]

Here's an awesome Premier Guitar article that I read about a year ago. This thread reminded me of it....
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Shapes of Things: A Brief History of the Peculiar Behind-the-Scenes War Over Guitar Designs. - Premier Guitar
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.......

Doesn't that Roter dude build Ibby look-alikes all the time?

Well, Roter is based in Poland. They do not fall under the same trademark laws as the United States.

Have you guys ever heard of Warmoth? Are all of their customers thieves in your eyes?

Not really. Warmoth pays a licensing fee to Fender for every neck that they sell with any of the various trademarked Fender headstock shapes (Since the Fender body shapes aren't trademarked, Warmoth does not pay licensing fees on those in this case. I do not know if they pay licensing fees on their Gibson-style bodies.) Warmoth does not and will not put a Fender decal on one of their necks. If one of their customers happens to apply a decal after the fact, there's nothing that Warmoth can do about it (except for the fact that they stamp the neck heel with a "Made by Warmoth" stamp.) This is actually a grey area for me though. If the owners wants to put the decal on the headstock, is there any problem there? For me, it's only if the owner tries to sell the neck as if it is OEM.




Historically, trademarks have generally been in effect only on guitar headstocks. That's why Rondo Music had to change the headstock shapes on their Fender look-a-likes two years ago... that's why Suhr, Melancon, Nash Guitars, and Tom Anderson use modified versions of the Strat headstock... that's why Carvin can't use their old 80's headstock (looks too much like a Jackson design)...that's why Charvel Guitars have a Disclaimer of License on the back of their headstocks (even though Charvel is owned by Fender now. )

This is the main area where the OP could get into trouble since he wants to duplicate the Ibanez headstock shape exactly. I don't think that Ibanez could or would sue him for any similarities in body design.



Only in a few instances (like the Les Paul) have body designs been trademarked. It's the reason why ESP Eclipse I's (i.e. Les Paul duplicate) can't be sold in America. If you've ever noticed it, ESP only sells the modified Eclipse II in America (the cutaway is florentine instead of Venetian and the knobs are put 3-in-a-curved-line instead of 4-in-a-diamond. Also, the body is much thinner.) This is also the reason why all the awesome Japanese Schecter designs (created by John Suhr) aren't sold here in the U.S.

I don't have much of a problem with what the OP wants to do. The only concern I have is the fact that he wants to do a production run of guitars and sell them to other players.

Rock on!

 

[HOLYDIVER]

Just slightly tweak the headstock, problem solved. Some people need to come down off their high horse, step down off the soapbox. EVERY builder that is highly respected and lauded by this forum makes guitars that are practically the same as the original guitar designs. I don't get what the problem is here and why people hopped on their soapboxes so quickly.

 

[Mindcrime1204]

Some people do things for the money in it, and some do it for the passion in it. Business minded people are always looking for ways to make a buck, and trying to get around things/loopholes.

Nothing wrong with chasing that dollar, imo. If he gets an e-mail saying he cant do it, oh well, he asked and tried.

I've seen scores or Ibanez clones built. The builder just doesn't put Ibanez on the headstock.

 

[clintsal]

So... you've abandoned your suggestion that someone "churn them out"? That was the part which struck me about the original post.

It's seemed that most of your questions have been regarding how to get around any repercussions arising from making copies. Is it okay to churn out copies? How many changes do I have to make to protect myself while churning them out?

Even your email makes it sound like you're altering your story in order to gain approval of this idea.

Since I am not a builder, it was never my intention to churn them out myself. Rather, I wondered if it were acceptable, if a builder who built these for me would perhaps be interested in making a run of these guitars (to lower costs) for others who might be interested in those specs, much like KxK is doing here:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/de...7-kxk-sii-7-7-scale-fanned-fret-sale-run.html,
though theirs is obviously a proprietary design.

If some builder took this idea and made it happen on a larger scale, I wouldn't be involved past coming up with the idea and having the first 2 built for myself. It would be up to the builder if they wanted to go on with it. Though I do openly admit that if I was a builder, I would have considered the idea, at least until I read some of the opinions and objections on here.

Since the beginning of this thread til now, I have not spoke with anyone about actually doing this production of clones, I just wanted to get a feel for the issue. If anything, I will most likely have replacement bodies made and just keep the necks that I like so much. I'm now pretty sure that noone would have a problem with that.

I wanted to see what people had to say about a hypothetical scenario with a anonymous builder, not myself. At this point, even if I had the resources and know-how, its pretty clear that this shouldn't be done. So as far as I'm involved, it won't.

 

[clintsal]

Some people do things for the money in it, and some do it for the passion in it. Business minded people are always looking for ways to make a buck, and trying to get around things/loopholes.

Nothing wrong with chasing that dollar, imo. If he gets an e-mail saying he cant do it, oh well, he asked and tried.

Exactly this. I couldn't ever make this happen myself, so even if it wouldn't have been my profit, I wondered if SOMEONE could/would try to make some money off the idea.

 

[Kodee2]

It is certainly completely fine in my mind, as long as you dont try selling it as an Ibanez made guitar, or try and simply get it to pass off as one by putting logos and things on it.
So, if you eventually sell it at one point just say its a guitar similar to an Ibanez and not a CUSTOM MADE IBANEZ GUITAR ONLY ONE IN THE WORLD MADE.