Cloning Ibanez specs w/ different woods: Unethical?

[TRENCHLORD]

If it's your order specs then the luthier is just doing his job. If he were to start building near knockoffs and marketing them to just anyone(public market) then Ibby might not like it much. That's not my legal opinion, more of an ethical opinion.

 

[darren]

As a designer, i will not copy someone else's work, nor will i do so as a luthier, whether someone thinks it's "just doing my job" or not.

 

[TRENCHLORD]

Hell, everyone copys Les Paul's and Leo Fender's work everyday. The only question is to what degree they copy it, and thats somewhat a matter of opinion. As for darrens post above, thats very admirable, if all luthiers had that attitude we would see so many more crazy sick designs and that would just like Clear Eyes(awsome).

 

[Ricky_Gallows]

I can see it now. Ibanex prestigey.

Go for it. Tons of companies make knock offs.

 

[Stealthdjentstic]

Tons of people make and sell ibanez replacement bodies, there's foul by ordering a clone.

 

[darren]

Hell, everyone copys Les Paul's and Leo Fender's work everyday.

Just because "everybody does it" doesn't make it ethical (or right), which is the core question here. The fact that so much copying happens is a sign that as a society we don't value originality or the hard work that goes into designing things that are new or different.

The only question is to what degree they copy it, and thats somewhat a matter of opinion.

Not really. If your intent is to copy and you change a couple of details to try to get around infringement, then you're still starting out with appropriating intellectual property that is not yours. It's still wrong, and whether it's wrong enough to count as infringement is a matter of legal opinion. Drawing inspiration from an existing design and outright copying it are two different matters.

Having a copy made for your own personal use seems to be permissible, but it's still a bit of a gray area for the luthier who's building it for you, because they're taking money for copying a design that's not theirs.

Fortunately, companies like Ibanez seem to turn a blind eye to the small builders who make RG and JEM knockoffs as long as they're not using Ibanez trade marks such as logos or their headstock design.

 

[BeyondAntares]

depends to what extent.

I'm building 1 custom guitar that has a mix of the best features from 5 different ibanez guitars with a different headstock, body width, inlay pattern and flatter neck profile via a compound radius.

Even the quilt top I've chosen is in a colour not to often found on mainstream axe's

It has features from 2 LACS that will never be produced since the artists have left Ibanez.

Since it's a one off and I have collected over 7 Ibanez guitars - i don't see anything wrong with what I'm doing. It's more of an hommage to ibanez and having a guitar that would never be made by them.

If it was to be mass produced - then definitely there'd be an ethical issue with it.

 

[dacimvrl]

there's def. an ethical issue there, and no, just cuz everyone does it, it doesn't warrant you the right to do it.

I would go for it, however, since it's no longer available.

 

[Dayn]

Consulting the internet is the best way to obtain legal advice.

Talk to someone in your area who has experience with this, or who can refer you to someone who can. With enormous damages on the line, you don't want to just dive in and hope it's okay: you need a competent professional. I can already see many intellectual property issues...

 

[Malkav]

If Ibanez aren't willing to offer the specs and wood choices we want then I don't see the problem. The RG is hardly a unique shape, it's just a superstrat, and probably would line up pretty similarly to a Jackson or ESP. I realise I'll probably get bitched at for this but essentially Blackmachines, Jaden Rose, ET Guitars and a few others in terms of body shape are pretty much as near as makes no difference, the only part where it becomes touchy in my mind is the headstock.

I love the Ibanez headstock, I'm very finicky about what headstocks I find appealing. I love the look of some of the Jaden Rose's I've seen but I think all the various headstock variations they offer are horribly ugly. They are essentially RGs with different headstocks that just don't work for me. I was thinking of making a local luthier in my area make me an 8 string based entirely off my RG2228 but with fanned frets so the headstock debate entered my mind.

I would probably get the same headstock but that's just cause I'm picky and have no conscious. I would however like to point out that Ibanez are a massive bunch of tools anyway seeing as the only reason we're getting driven to make higher spec copies of their guitars is cause unlike their rivals Jackson and ESP they refuse to let us regular paying, not endorsed, customers buy from their custom shop. In essence they're creating demand for this kind of thing, maybe if more people made more direct rips of their guitars and posted them on forums etc they would see the obvious fanboy demand for a custom shop and realise that if they opened it to the public they'd probably have a 2 year waiting list within the first month.

 

[simonXsludge]

interesting discussion.

i don't see a problem here, as long as you get those built for your own use and not to make profit with. but at the same time i guess that ibanez even benefits from all the modded RG's and luthiers that offer replacement bodies and parts. even with the logo and headstock design, it will just get their name out even further. there is such a huge market for ibanez replacement parts and luthiers that are offering all that, and i havn't heard of ibanez taking legal action against it. maybe for a reason.

plus, you could always try and get in touch with someone at ibanez and just ask, if they mind your plans of getting those built by someone for you, while they are not offering them anymore or with the specs you like.

 

[BenEllerGuitars]

I have a mahogany RG7 copy made by the infamous Patrick Sims, and its one of my favorite guitars ever. The neck is from an Ibby rg7621, but the body is one piece of beautiful mahogany. i love it!

 

[Randy]

I want a Javelin with a Blackmachine headstock and it I want it to cost $500.

 

[Neil]

I want a Javelin with a Blackmachine headstock and it I want it to cost $500.

I'll trade you my Agile for it

 

[SirMyghin]

Just because "everybody does it" doesn't make it ethical (or right), which is the core question here. The fact that so much copying happens is a sign that as a society we don't value originality or the hard work that goes into designing things that are new or different.



Not really. If your intent is to copy and you change a couple of details to try to get around infringement, then you're still starting out with appropriating intellectual property that is not yours. It's still wrong, and whether it's wrong enough to count as infringement is a matter of legal opinion. Drawing inspiration from an existing design and outright copying it are two different matters.

Having a copy made for your own personal use seems to be permissible, but it's still a bit of a gray area for the luthier who's building it for you, because they're taking money for copying a design that's not theirs.

Fortunately, companies like Ibanez seem to turn a blind eye to the small builders who make RG and JEM knockoffs as long as they're not using Ibanez trade marks such as logos or their headstock design.

Darren has it in spades. You cannot argue it is ethical by any means, you can only attempt to poke holes to justify it in your mind. There is so much you can do with a guitar there is no need to rip off anyone elses design (hey look, another blackmachine clone!).

There is no point debating what is a pretty straightforward answer, then again self-justification seems to happen about a lot of ethical and legal issues. I suppose when you NEED the item, and the means of procuring it you are going to need to do some upstairs fudgery. If you respect the creator, in any form (and if you want their particular take on something bad enough to copy it, you do have that respect) you will go to the creator and A) get them to follow through for you, or B) at minimum ask freaking permission, and if they say no RESPECT IT.

 

[clintsal]

In my opinion, the people against the idea of reproducing Ibanez-spec'd guitars have made much more sound arguments. So following their suggestions, I just sent this to Ibanez in an email:

My two favorite guitars to play are my MIJ S7420 and RG7421XL, but they both have a couple things I would do differently if I had built them.

My question is, would would Ibanez as a company have a problem (legal or otherwise) with me taking these two guitars to a luthier to make clones in terms of measurements, but using different woods, hardware, and electronics? I am interested in doing so because these two models are no longer in production and there is currently no Ibanez guitars with my following desired specs.

The S7420 Clone:
Neckthrough with the same neck measurements (width, thickness, etc)
25.5" scale
22 SS frets
Ebony Board
3 Piece Maple/Bubinga/Maple
Mahogany Body w/ Maple top, same general shape & thickness as the S7420
No trem route, Hipshot bridge w/ Graphtech Ghost piezo system
Lundgren pickups

The RG7421XL Clone:
Again, neckthrough w/ same neck measurements (width, thickness, etc)
27" scale
24 SS frets
Maple board (birdseye?)
3 Piece Maple/Bubinga/Maple
Swamp Ash body w/ Walnut top, in the general RG shape
Hipshot bridge w/ Graphtech Ghost piezo system
Bareknuckle Pickups

Please let me know what Ibanez's stance on this would be, as I do not want to cross any legal or ethical boundaries.

Thank you for your time,
Clinton W. Saloga
Phone: xxx.xxx.xxxx
clintsal(at)gmail.com

You'll all know their response as soon as I do...

 

[yingmin]

It seems to me that the only specs about either of those guitars that are at all specific to the original Ibanez models are the body shape and the neck dimensions. The body shapes are essentially just modified Strat shapes anyway, which is what the vast majority of guitars made already are, so if you're concerned about the ethics of it, there's very little you could do to alter the body shape that wouldn't make it similar to a DIFFERENT guitar, rather than the one you're trying to recreate. As for the neck profile...it's a neck profile. I guess I just can't see how there would be an ethical issue with sculpting a similar neck profile. Really, if you took those specs to a luthier or custom shop and made no mention of the inspiration behind them, they'd accidentally make something similar to the Ibanez originals without even trying.

Now, I understand Darren's stance on this, and completely agree at least in principle. I'm really big into originality, but I just think that the specific things that you like about those guitars aren't things that Ibanez has any real claim to. The Strat shape has endured and propagated like it has because it's a practical, comfortable shape. I think you should try to put your own spin on it, rather than just copying their own spin, but the bottom line is that you see so many of them because it's a shape that just WORKS.

 

[seven_stringer]

My take on this is to make something original if it's to be sold to the public. This way you can avoid all of the ethical/unethical stuff.

If I built a copy of an Ibanez RG (no emblem) for someone how would I know if they later put an Ibanez emblem on it to sell it as original? What if they sold it as is and the next owner put an emblem on it? Of course I would like to think that this would never happen but what control would I have after the sale? I've seen copies of various guitars with emblems that I'd swear were originals and I've seen many that are obvious fakes but not everyone can tell the difference between the two. This again brings me back to thinking that making something original is the best way to go.

As a woodworker I had almost all of the tools I needed to build the guitar that I couldn't afford to buy so I thought what the heck I'll give it a try. I've only built eight guitar's to date for personal use and the first three I recycled for future builds. However, none of them are exact copies and none of them have Fender, Gibson, PRS etc. emblems on them.

 

[seven_stringer]

Sorry! Computer locked up double post.

 

[myampslouder]

Aren't there a few builders who have basically made their careers out of building Ibanez jem copies. Some of which sell for more than a new Ibanez jem