Counting Time - Practice Questions

[TeeWX]

Hello ss.org,

I have a few questions about counting time signatures.

1st Question: The way I have been going about doing this is to count the beats in my head. (ex 1 e and a 2 e and a...) The way I have come to understand it is that typically in metal songs most notes have an 8th note value, and 16th notes are used for speeding up areas with legato or gallops etc. Generally if note values remain constant it can get boring rather quickly. My question though is how do you generally count out a part in your head while playing?

example: 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a

If you were chugging a rhythm on the red bolded divisions, would you still count the divisions that aren't being played (rests, let ring, etc) in your head as you play?

2nd Question: Is it better to practice to a metronome (simple beep/click on the quarter note beats), or to use a drum machine and set up something simple like kick drum on beats 1, 3 and snare on beats 2, 4 with like a cymbal on all beats? Or even set up a drum machine to match your rhythm and play along to the kick/tom/snare/etc or some combination?

3rd Question: A lot of the bands I listen to and learn riffs from play in an equal mixture of 3/4, 7/8, and 4/4 timing. Should I devote equal time practicing in each of these or pick one to spend the blunt of my practice schedule on? I have unfortunately not jammed with any drummers yet who can improvise anything outside of 4/4.

4th Question: What is a good way to count odd time signatures? 3/4 time seems like it would be fine to count as 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a and then loop, but something like 7/8 seems awkward as I'm not use to saying 4 e 1 e & a... etc

5th Question: What is the best way to count triplets when you are improvising them over a non triplet drum beat. For example if the cymbal is on 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & and you want to randomly introduce triplets as part of a melody or something who do you get your mind use to the switch from counting 1 e & a 2 a la.. etc and back? Would you ever start a triplet on a 16th note division? (e's and a's) How would you accomplish this?

Thanks in advance for any help! I realize this might be a lot for one thread but as I find adequate answers I will come back to this opening post and mark questions as answered. Thanks again.

 

[Winspear]

I don't count as I play, as I always have the rhythm learned in my head first. Typically found that pretty easy, but if I were to count as I played I would just count as many divisions as practical for the speed.
Typically, it's not going to be very practical at tempo, because usually you will have some notes that are on an offbeat 16th or something and at almost any tempo counting 16 beats per bar is going to be insane. I think it's pretty necessary to just know how it should sound in your head by learning slowly and not needing to count at tempo.

I find it better to practice to a drum machine - it grooves better and makes you tighte for recording and makes you regard dynamics more (providing the beat is structured to the piece).

I'd devote equal time to various time signatures but to be honest I've always just approached a song at a time, bar by bar regardless of signature.

Counting 7/8 for example depends on the riff. Listen to the intro to Deliverance by Opeth. 12 12 123 12 12 123. Yeah?
Another way to count is the Takadimi method which I've always used in some form without knowing what it was.
In that particular example the count would be TaKa DiMi TaKaDi or something. Counting like this is generally much more tempo friendly. You should find if you 'beatbox' that beat lightly under your breath you'll find similar syllables.

I would never count triplets in that case, once again I'd prefer to just know how it sounds and play it. Counting a triplet across a beat (for example an 8th note triplet with 4th note cymbals) is easy and perfectly fine, but if the cymbal were in 8ths I'd either want to block out the offbeat cymbals or just not count.

 

[TeeWX]

I don't count as I play, as I always have the rhythm learned in my head first. Typically found that pretty easy, but if I were to count as I played I would just count as many divisions as practical for the speed.
Typically, it's not going to be very practical at tempo, because usually you will have some notes that are on an offbeat 16th or something and at almost any tempo counting 16 beats per bar is going to be insane. I think it's pretty necessary to just know how it should sound in your head by learning slowly and not needing to count at tempo.

I find it better to practice to a drum machine - it grooves better and makes you tighte for recording and makes you regard dynamics more (providing the beat is structured to the piece).

I'd devote equal time to various time signatures but to be honest I've always just approached a song at a time, bar by bar regardless of signature.

Counting 7/8 for example depends on the riff. Listen to the intro to Deliverance by Opeth. 12 12 123 12 12 123. Yeah?
Another way to count is the Takadimi method which I've always used in some form without knowing what it was.
In that particular example the count would be TaKa DiMi TaKaDi or something. Counting like this is generally much more tempo friendly. You should find if you 'beatbox' that beat lightly under your breath you'll find similar syllables.

I would never count triplets in that case, once again I'd prefer to just know how it sounds and play it. Counting a triplet across a beat (for example an 8th note triplet with 4th note cymbals) is easy and perfectly fine, but if the cymbal were in 8ths I'd either want to block out the offbeat cymbals or just not count.

Thanks for the response. I generally don't have any issues with covering already written material as I already know how it sounds as you stated. I'm mostly concerned with improvising and writing my own material. Basically what you'd do if you were just jamming with a drummer.

 

[Winspear]

Gotcha. That's good. You'll have much less trouble with your mentioned goals if you're not one of those that feels the need to count songs they know.
I've found the Takadimi thing incredibly helpful when writing as I'd generally write heavily syncopated rhythms or things in odd time signatures. I sing them over in my head using Takadimi to count the gaps, or tapping my finger whilst moving it in the direction of, and visualizing, a 2x4 block (like a dice for Six, but eight instead). Fill up all 4 rows? 4/4. One dot less? 7/8. Etc. Pretty strange but I find it easier if I don't have to pay attention to what number I'm on, instead being able to stop at the end with a visual reference and think 'that was five', etc. I got pretty fluent at this and can now sing through a riff that changes time signature every bar whilst tapping my finger, and know what the time sigs were at the end of it. Sometimes the finger wont sync up and that's a good indicator that there's an odd 16th at the end.

I feel silly now.

 

[Winspear]

Really that's the same as using the Takadimi system to feel out the sequence and then count up the syllables at the end.

 

[Solodini]

Hello ss.org,

I have a few questions about counting time signatures.

1st Question: The way I have been going about doing this is to count the beats in my head. (ex 1 e and a 2 e and a...) The way I have come to understand it is that typically in metal songs most notes have an 8th note value, and 16th notes are used for speeding up areas with legato or gallops etc. Generally if note values remain constant it can get boring rather quickly. My question though is how do you generally count out a part in your head while playing?

example: 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a

If you were chugging a rhythm on the red bolded divisions, would you still count the divisions that aren't being played (rests, let ring, etc) in your head as you play?

It depends on the rhythm. Sometimes I’ll count the played divisions louder or higher pitched in my head to accent them. That’s generally with more dense rhythms. Simpler grooves I may just say the names of the divisions I play on and give the rest a nonspecific sound.

2nd Question: Is it better to practice to a metronome (simple beep/click on the quarter note beats), or to use a drum machine and set up something simple like kick drum on beats 1, 3 and snare on beats 2, 4 with like a cymbal on all beats? Or even set up a drum machine to match your rhythm and play along to the kick/tom/snare/etc or some combination?

A metronome can be better to make sure you’re not too reliant on the drum part but, as mentioned, a drum beat can be good for a sense of phrasing. It may be handy to use the drum beat while working it out and then practise with just a metronome to improve your autonomy. I wouldn’t advise a drum pattern exactly the same as your guitar rhythm, though. That sounds like a sure fire way to become too reliant on it.

3rd Question: A lot of the bands I listen to and learn riffs from play in an equal mixture of 3/4, 7/8, and 4/4 timing. Should I devote equal time practicing in each of these or pick one to spend the blunt of my practice schedule on? I have unfortunately not jammed with any drummers yet who can improvise anything outside of 4/4.

Pick one each time you practise.
Partly answering the next question, all time signatures are just some combination of 2s and 3s (3s just being 2 and 1, funnily enough!). 3 / 4 is just 3 beats and divides into twos, as you have identified below. As EE mentioned, 7 / 8 is best as some combinations of 1s, 2s and 3s. Again, as he mentioned, 12 12 123 is pretty common. You can just subdivide that to achieve faster notes. 1 & 2 & 1 & 2 & 1 & 2 & 3 &. After a while you’re likely to start to just feel that as 3 beats, where the last is slightly longer.

4th Question: What is a good way to count odd time signatures? 3/4 time seems like it would be fine to count as 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a and then loop, but something like 7/8 seems awkward as I'm not use to saying 4 e 1 e & a... etc

5th Question: What is the best way to count triplets when you are improvising them over a non triplet drum beat. For example if the cymbal is on 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & and you want to randomly introduce triplets as part of a melody or something who do you get your mind use to the switch from counting 1 e & a 2 a la.. etc and back? Would you ever start a triplet on a 16th note division? (e's and a's) How would you accomplish this?

I generally count triplets as 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a or 123 223 323 423, which you may find more confusing. If it’s really fast triplets, I’d think of the rhythm as using note lengths twice as long and count it like that while initially learning it, then bounce back and forth between that and the original counting method at half speed. You could, hypothetically, count 123 e23 &23 a23 223 e23 &23 a23 if you really want. That’d likely be incredibly fast.

If you wanted to start an 8th triplet on a 16th division, as you described, I’d probably try to play it alongside a drumbeat, starting with triplets on the beat and then have the drum part with one more or less 16th so you’re cycling through each possible starting point with each bar which passes. Maybe write a drum part with 4 bars (or 8 bars if you prefer for each) of 4/4, 1 bar of 15/16 (programmed just as 4/4 minus the last 16th), 4 bars of 4/4 again, 1 bar of 15/16. That’ll get you through each variation, in time.

If you want to get really intensive, if it’s triplets and 16ths per beat, you could divide each beat by 12 (3 triplet divisions x 4 16th divisions) and write a guitar part with pedal tone (chug) on the beat and the triplets starting wherever you want. Every 3rd division would be the 16th note, every 4th from where you start your triplet would be the next triplet note. It’d be a pain in the arse to work through but you’d eventually build up to that rhythm you want, if you don’t have technology around to synthesise it for you to hear.

Hope that helps some. Let me know if you would like me to elaborate about anything.

 

[Diet Kirk]

Excuse the noobie question but what is the takadimi method? By the sounds of it, its a good device to transfer those cool things that pop into your head on your way home down on paper so you don't forget them when you come to pick up a guitar?

 

[TeeWX]

Excuse the noobie question but what is the takadimi method? By the sounds of it, its a good device to transfer those cool things that pop into your head on your way home down on paper so you don't forget them when you come to pick up a guitar?

Do a google search on Takadimi method. There is a good amount of information out there about it. It is another way to count rhythms. You will have to decide for yourself if it works for you. Personally, I have a very mathematical way of thinking, and I really really like numbers. So I don't think it is for me.

 

[jafurman]

Personally, I wouldn't actually count when improvising or writing my own material, but rather go with the feel of the groove (as cliche as that may sound), and only count if I were transcribing a song. When actually learning a song, I think it's best to methodically break the rhythm down and then internalize it so it becomes unnecessary to count.

For your second question, I think that either one works well, but if you want to get used to improvising in a band setting, or even just with a drummer, you should probably opt for a drum machine. Try using various beats within each time signature you want to get used to, and don't be afraid to get a bit complex with the drums.

Third, it really depends on what your aim is. If you want to be as well-rounded as possible, pick out the time signatures you think will help with that and maybe devote one day of the week to each (or, if you're really getting into odd time, just do one day for each and cycle as needed, regardless of what day of the week it is).

Fourth, there are a few ways. The takadimi method and similar ones are quite useful if you're counting out loud. I just bought Benny Greb's "The Language of Drumming" yesterday, and I highly recommend it if you want to get into syncopation - anyway, he uses the words "radio" and "university" for counting in 3s and 5s, respectively, and the phrase "listen to the radio" for 7s. Since you prefer numbers but have trouble with stuff like "...3 e & a 4 e 1...", you could just count to "7 e & a", essentially counting one measure of 7/4 instead of two of 7/8, and do the same for whatever other odd time signature you're working on.

Fifth, I'm not really sure what the best way to approach this is. I realize I'm repeating myself (I'll do it one or two more times in this post), but learning to internalize the feel of different note groupings/tuplets is probably the best way to get this out of your mind so you can play fluently and fluidly.

As a last note, I haven't done this myself so I can't reliably vouch for its effectiveness, but I'd imagine that it really would help to vocalize your solos & leads as you play them - not only with identifying the rhythms, but with expressing melodies that you hear in your head.

As an actual last note, I think it's valuable to remember that the most effective way to think in odd times is to internalize them so that you don't need to count in order to identify the time signature or polyrhythm that's being played in. I've reached the point where I can tell if something's in 3, 5, or 7 without counting, and I'm still working on 11 and 13, and I can say from experience that it's a joy to be able to get the rhythm without thinking too hard about it.

Also, I might have a video or two by JP Bouvet that could help with this, I'll take a look when I get a chance. Hope something in this post helps. Good luck!

Edit: Also, now that I've actually taken the time to read it, Solodini gave some sound advice. It would be wise to follow it.

 

[Solodini]

Give the middle section of Chess by The Katet a go for internalising 13. It's catchy as something nasty!

 

[theronaldchase]

I'm not sure if any of this has been said before, but heres what I've got:


1st Question: 1 e & a... is fine. It's what I do, and even on the rests I still count the beat in order to stay on time.


2nd Question: Any of these are fine. It is probably better to change it up from time to time just so you feel comfortable with any of it.

3rd Question: This is sort of a personal preference sort of thing. I practice as many time signatures as I can as equally as I can. Though, if you primarily play in (Insert odd time signature here) then I would put slightly more focus there.

4th Question: Anything in x/4 can be counted as 1 e & a... but if it is in x/8 I always count "1 ta la ta li ta" as 16th notes and "1 la li" as eighth.

5th Question: Practice. Play around with it and moving the syncopation of the triplets around. This is where I would recommend setting up a drum machine to play the exact rhythm you want to play and try to match it. This would be a hard thing to practice if the click is just hitting on the beat and not in between.

Hope this helped.