Custom Ibanez S replacemnet bodies....Serious Intrest only.

[sworth9411]

Yeah I don't see the price dropping even at all(but you never know)...cost of raw materials, time and effort, and my CNC mill are just to expensive to cover it. I can see what I can do about selling you a blank to get routed your self which might help cost for you but all the routing pretty much is what it is....

The route you want is actually probably the route I will do for myself so you'll hopefully get a chance to see it in action if this generates enough buzz

 

[Isan]

Price is pretty high for the routed, seeing as the body only cost ~60-100
If you own a cnc machine it basically = no extra work
but it's your call

 

[Elysian]

Price is pretty high for the routed, seeing as the body only cost ~60-100
If you own a cnc machine it basically = no extra work
but it's your call

wow, you're post is so uninformed, i don't even know where to start. CNC does not carve out beautifully shaped S bodies just like that, they are very rough shaped, and have to be shaped the rest of the way by hand. plus you have to factor in programming time, and cost for the cutters, and actual cost of the CNC, both when it was purchased and the cost to actually run it. go find out how much itd cost to have a local CNC operator do the same job for you, then come back and say its priced "pretty high".

 

[sworth9411]

Dude I own my CNC Machine ($55,000 mind you) just to programs something as simple as a block of wood takes aprx 3 man hours from a union worker no less, and then cost of operating? Most of these are absorbed into the cost....yes but unfair price? No.

For anyone who wants to get an idea of actual cost on this heres my break even plan (not quite even but hopefully I can make more than a few batches and make a few dollars)...

***Edit***Cost of material Aprx 10-20$ in pre cut kiln dried slabs Also goes down significantly if I order in bulk.
Cost of programming the machine for the body style ($1100 one time charge)
Cost of operating the machine (aprx $130 per hour)
Time it take to cut start to finish (aprx 38 min per piece)
Hand Finishing and sanding $45.00 or so...(3 hours at $15.00 an hour).
Routing (aprx $120.00 depending but subject to change as I get templates...) This will be a charge for custom Routes only as I will be programming the machine for Lo-Pro with 2 Passive Humbuckers

My first run will be for the five guitars. If that goes well and the is interest I will do Five more at a slightly lower cost, and if interest conitnues the price will continue to go down.

Unfortunatley (as the thread states) I cannot compete with Sims custom shop prices (as they are very good and they obviously do more of this than I do) but hopefully with enough interest can bring cost down after the initial few guitars.

 

[Bobby]

I'm very interested.

This is cost effective to me. I'm a machinist I know all about the time and money required to pull this off.

 

[Isan]

Dude, I didn't mean to offend, and let me clear this up, I meant that once one has the cnc program for routing a lo pro (pickups or whatever) one won't ,to the best of my knowledge, have to reprogram for the lo pro and adding 120$ for that seemed a bit high.
TRUST me I know you can't carve well with cnc. Otherwise I would have everything cnc'd after Last time I used a rasp (hint blood and missing skin)

 

[Isan]

GOOD GOD! I knew most factories got it roughly done, but not too that extent, WOW.
Time to take out a loan.

 

[sworth9411]

removed.

 

[Sims Custom Shop]

I'm not trying to promote my business, or s bodies, if I was I would make my own thread about it. I only showed a picture of my guitar to show that if an intricate carve like that can be done on a CNC then with very little roughness or even mill marks so something as simple as an S body could be done even easier.

Some of these figures don't make any sence, sorry, maybe you could explain them a little more........

Cost of material 40-70$ in pre cut kiln dried slabs (I know a little over priced but remember this is LA)

What kind of wood are you using? No basswood, alder or mahognay blank is going to cost you $40-$70. I just talked to Chris woods, who lives right outside of LA in Covina, and he told me basswood is approx $3 a board foot out there, alder is $5 a board foot & mahogany is $8 a board foot. The fact that you live in LA actually makes your prices LESS than most other areas of the US b/c the closer you are to the sea the closer you are to the ports, and the closer you are to the ports the cheaper the lumber costs b.c they don't have to transport it as far. The same mahogany that you can buy in LA for $8 a board foot costs me around $11 a board foot. That doesnt sound like much, but it is when you buy a couple hundred board foot. That $2 additional per board foot adds up. So don't steer people to believe you pay more for wood b.c your in LA, the fact of the matter is your costs, anybodys costs for that matter that lives close to the sea is actually less. And your right, if you buy more it would be less....less than the prices above. The prices above were taken from a lumber yards website in LA.

A basswood body blank thats 21" x 14" x 1 3/4" is around 3.5 board foot....so your looking at around $12-$15 for that body blank. An alder one you would have around $17 in it, mahogany around $25. $40-$70 is outrageous. I made that entire spalted maple, flame maple, purpleheart & mahogany body blank aboove for about $50.

Cost of programming the machine for the body style ($1100 one time charge)

Well, if your gonna charge $320 for a body like you say & your gonna make 5 bodies at least then thats $1600. Thats more than enough money to pay for the programming, buy enough lumber to do 20 guitars & still have money left. Although, $1100 is steep for such a simple design. After you sell the 3rd guitar the program is paid for, so are u going to drop the price significantly after that?

Hand Finishing and sanding $45.00 or so...(3 hours at $15.00 an hour).

Just think, you could shave $45 off the final price if you simply went ahead & invested a little more money & did the carved top on the CNC. Why sand for 3 hrs when it could probably do it in 15 mins. While you would spend a little more money on the carve top & back program think of the amount of sand paper you would go through in 15 hrs of sanding (3 hrs of sanding x 5 guitars.)....that would be more expensive than the cost of 1 router bit. Thats 2 work days nearly of your life spent sanding. If you CNC will make a body in 38 mins then that means in the 15 hrs you spend sanding, if you did it all on the CNC, you could have made 25 MORE bodies! So what would be better? Making 5 bodies for $1600 & spending 15 hours sanding them, or forking out a couple more hundred dollars, heck lets say it costs you a GRAND for the carved top addition & instead of sanding 15 hrs you made 25 more bodies. Thats a total of 30 bodies & at $320 a piece thats $9600. Now, are you trying to tell me you would rather sand 5 bodies for 15 hours and make NOTHING, (b/c remember you said you are doing them at cost) or pay to have a program made to cut the carve, make 30 bodies and $9600. Take a grand out of that for the program & that leaves you $8600. Its not rocket science. Secondly, if you have the money to buy a $55k CNC machine then a couple hundred or even a thousand for a program should be pocket change......unless of course its not YOUR CNC machine but rather just somewhere you work ats CNC machine. Its interetsing b/c you say your not a luthier, but yet you say you make furniture & now possibly guitars. What would that make you then? I always thought a luthier was basically a woodworker.

1 Body ='s $320
x Qty 5
------------
Total: $1600

1 Body ='s $320
x Qty 30
--------------
$9600
-$1000 for Carve Program (INSANELY HIGH but worse case scenario)
-----
$8600
Divided by 2 (Cut the price 50% to make them affordable, so $160 per body)
-----------
And you still make $4300 IN THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME.

So instead of making $225 for sanding 15 hrs ($45 per body @ $15 pr/hr as you say) wouldn't you rather make a better body, sand less & make $2700 MORE in the same amount of time? Less work, better product, more cost effective for you, afforadable to more people, more money in your pocket.

Routing (aprx $120.00 depending but subject to change as I get templates..

Templates? Why are you using templates if your CNC'ing them? What are you actually CNCing? I don't understand why you would CNC part of the body then use templates & a router on the rest. If the program was $1100 then it should be cutting the entire guitar front & back.

Cost of operating the machine (aprx $130 per hour)

Isnt this the same thing as charging $120 above to do the routing? Why are you charging $120 to do the routing then another $130 to operate the machine? When its routing is it not operating? Seems like your charging for the same thing twice & just calling it by a different name.

a hand carve as it improves the quality control and it is more cost effective to do it this way

Doing a carve top by hand is never going to be "better" quality or as consistent as a CNC. Explain to me how you doing it by hand somehow makes the quality of it better than a machine doing the exact same thing only much more accurately. My carve tops are within 4 millionths of an inch everytime on every guitar.....you cannot replicate that by hand. If you do your carves by hand on the S bodies your going to make then no two will be alike....very similar yes but not exact. So if your concerned about quality control like you say then you cannot out beat the quality control or accuracy of a CNC.....just b/c it does it much quicker doesn't mean its somehow poorer quality. Just b.c you can make 10 a day instead of 1 by hand a day isn't a bad thing, its called being productive. The less time you have in it the cheaper you can offer it to people here. Personally I believe if you figure in your time of sitting there hand sanding & carving the front & back (unless your paying yourself $5 an hr in labor) then doing it by hand would make the price of the body much more expensive than paying the additional cost & having the carve programmed then being able to do that body for a life time. Sell a few bodies & it would pay for the programming then you can make them perfect, consistent, quicker & cheaper b/c you'll have less time invested in them & it'll actually be a better product.

Putting a big add for your guitars on another builders post...really dude....how childish

What are you talking about? I didn't put up a big add for my guitars, I simply showed a picture of our carved top to back up how MUCH can actually be done with a CNC & that the need to carve stuff by hand is ineffiecient, not cost effective & not any better quality.

I am doing these basically for cost to see what comes of it....It is a courtesy to other forum members who may want something and have less of a budget

You are not doing them for cost. At $320 or so per body your making a considerable amount of profit. It doesn't cost anymore money to make an S body than a JEM body & I can make a JEM body out of alder for about $20 including machine time. Sure I charge approx $120 more than that, but thats to compensate me for my time of going to the lumber yard & getting the lumber, gluing up the blank, CNCing it & doing any finish sanding that needs to be done. Someone can buy an entire Ibanez S model for nearly the price you want for a bare body. If your wanting to cater to people on a budget then you need to get your costs down about 50%.....and the 1st way to do that is stop doing stuff by hand. Time is money. I'm not trying to steal any of your business, b/c as I see it right now you don't even have any business yet & I don't need anymore anyways, I'm just simply trying to point out if you are trying to offer bodies to people on a budget they have to be AFFORDABLE & in order for them to be affordable you need to seriously re-evaluate your prices, where your buying your lumber (b/c if your paying $70-$100 for enough wood to make a body blank your getting ripped a new one) your figures on operating costs, programming costs, etc. Someone who is on a budget is NOT going to buy an unpainted S body for $320. Their gonna buy a used REAL Ibanez one on ebay for less than half that & then they can have it painted for the same price your asking. You have to be competitive & make a reason for why your body is the better deal otherwise nobody is going to buy it.

If I can make a body for $20 bucks or so then so can you.

I’m sure you do phenomenal work and have an army of machines, and employees making your bodies

Actually no. I have 2 people who work for me, who mostly sand & ship & I have 1 CNC. Currently I'm the only one who knows to operate the CNC. I do all the cutting, & gluing up of body blanks as well as all the CNCing & painting.

but let’s be serious you’re not the only one with a CNC machine

Did I ever say I was??

 

[Isan]

If anything SCS was being polite and informative.

 

[lobee]

If anything SCS was being polite and informative.

 

[caughtinamosh]

+1 ^

While it may seem that SMS' post was a touch overbearing with regard to his own business, I sincerely think that it was all in goodwill.

 

[Sims Custom Shop]

The thing you have to consider is even though I may own my own business I'm not offering, making or advertising S bodies right now. There is absolutely no intention or interest in trying to steal any business from anyone. If someone wrote me right now & asked me to make them an S body I would tell them I don't have time & to just go buy a used body on e-Bay.

 

[sworth9411]

If you have a supplier that supplies cheaper than that by all means I am all ears….This a cost that I have learned to be fairly standard across the board mind you I am purchasing for furniture regularly and not for guitars if there are less expensive resources by all means. I purchase all of my wood from a lumber yard in Irvine and in Santa Monica those are my prices (cost)…if they are available less of course that will bring the cost down significantly.

You are correct about the cost on the CNC ing which is why it would make sense to only be able to do this If I am able to get 5 bodies. Enough money to cover my costs. If I did turn this into a couple of runs and it does work out of course I would reduce the cost...

I understand that milling them out via the CNC and understand that that does save some time and money. In my experience finishing by hand has yielded a better quality and more consistent product (again subjective). From my cabinetry to table legs. I have gotten better results finishing by hand then by machine.

You misunderstand “template” (And I probably wasn’t very clear) the templates are the program used on the machine to route them out they will be routed by hand, or by machine whichever becomes more cost effective and yields a good result.

In regards to quality tomato, tomatoe…..it’s a different way to a similar result. This is the best way I am able to do these and the cost is where I can get it….if you are able to offer a superior product for less money (which it seems you are) then I will absolutely back out and call it a day….I felt like this would be a good way to bring a potential product on the market where there has been demand in the past.

I did not read a helpful vibe from the first post, to me it felt like a stab at me and to be honest again I’m not a luthier (first to admit) and if you are able to produce these so much less expensive then by all means I was not aware to me your post came of arrogant and if was not intended that way then my apologies, maybe a PM next time in a friendlier tone would not have triggered me to be defensive, and my apologies for that...

If you have a better product and can offer it for half of what I can, I just can’t compete with that as I don’t manufacture guitar bodies, I manufacturer furniture, and guess I will stick to that for now....although will try to make this run work.

 

[Sims Custom Shop]

No problem. I was not trying to come off arrogant, I was just trying to suggest some ways that you could make these cheaper & more affordable.

Ok, you need to call Ganahl Lumber. Their website is Ganahl Lumber - THE source for lumber and hardware in So. Cal.

They are in Santa Ana, 6 miles out of Irvine. You can get 8/4 lumber from them (2 inches thick) which means it would only need to be planed down 1/4" and you got your 1.75" body blank thickness.

Their prices are:

African Mahogany - $9.57 per board foot
Alder - $4.83 per board foor
Basswood $2.93 per board foot

Theres approx 3 board foot in a body blank so thats $28.71 for a mahogany body blank, $14.49 for an alder body blank, $8.79 for a basswood blank. I wasn't but just a few dollars off my approximation....

See, the fact that you live by the sea makes your prices less. You won't find Basswood or Alder any cheaper than that. Theres no reason in the world why it should cost someone $320 to buy lets say an Alder body when the wood for that body only costs $14.49

 

[sworth9411]

+1 Rep....appreciate it.

 

[sworth9411]

EDIT FOR PRICE CHANGE IN FIRST POST.

 

[dragsternj]

Theres no reason in the world why it should cost someone $320 to buy lets say an Alder body when the wood for that body only costs $14.49

one wonders than how some end up selling stuff for 3.5k

 

[Isan]

MUCH better !

 

[darren]

one wonders than how some end up selling stuff for 3.5k

It's a long way from a raw body to a finished guitar.