Custom shop dissapointment

[canuck brian]

I recently had something like this happen with a customer's case. It got banged around something fierce and looks like a forklift came into direct angry pointy contact with it.

I refunded the cash on the case and opened a ticket with Fedex. The guy received damaged product and its not his fault and he shouldn't just "deal" with a busted up case. I feel it's on the builder to make this right up front for the customer and for the builder to figure out the busted case on their own with the company that did the shipping.

All that being said, I've honestly heard really nothing but good things about Skervvy and I love their guitars. They'll set you right, even if they've taken a while doing it.

 

[7 Strings of Hate]

This thread brings up an interesting topic.

I want everybody who's opinion is that Skervesen is to be held accountable for UPS's damage and bad customer service to put themselves in Skerv's shoes. Imagine shipping a used guitar that you sold to somebody on eBay and the shipper damages it and then drags their feet for months on the claim and then denies it. Are you to be held accountable for UPS's bad business practices? If the answer is no then I'd like to hear why you believe that a manufacturer or custom shop should be held to a different standard.

Um... I'd expect UPS to be held accountable honestly. And like I said before, it was probably 1 of 3 things.
1.Skervesen didnt pack it correctly and UPS wont cover it.
2.UPS was being dicks and wouldnt cover it regardless(and if that was the case, I'm sure Skervy would have mentioned that)
3.They just didnt follow up on the claim. Which would make the onus fall back on Skervy.

I dont think anyone is arguing that the damage is not the fault of either party. Its the shippers fault. But the ultimate responsibility lies with the manufacturer to get the product to the customers door un-harmed. So the shipping company f-ed up? No biggy. The customer should get taken care of and the issue should be had between the guitar company and the shipper. The customer shouldnt have to deal with any of it. They paid for a product, they should get the proper product.


If this happened to me personally, selling a guitar? I would make sure it was insured and packaged sufficently. Take pictures. And properly cover my butt. Then when things went south, I could come to the shipping company with a claim and get things properly handled. If the shipping company screwed me and wouldnt pay, then I would just have to deal with it I guess. I sure as hell wouldnt try to pass the buck on to the guy who bought the guitar from me.

*I mentioned UPS. I dont know who the shipping company is, its just habit to blame UPS

 

[feraledge]

I don't think anyone doesn't side with the OP, you pay for a new, unscathed case, you should get a new, unscathed case. All facts on the table, there is plenty of reason to be thankful that the case did it's job and the guitar arrived fine. All of us are aching to see that guitar, BTW.
The jokes were at the "on the fence" meandering which is what made this thread start out like a run of the mill blind complaint thread which we all know get locked quick and are discouraged in the forum rules.
Max pointed out quick that if you're going to go through the trouble of posting, then why not post the pics.
I think that tone from "severely smashed case" to talk about getting ripped off by a custom shop (while more than a handful of forum members might be out of thousands of dollars from custom shop owner hijinks/scams) was just overblown.

IMO, it's this simple, the OP had reason to complain, but it could've been in the context of a side note to a NGD post and I think there wouldn't have been any jokes at their expense. We all think clearly after we bust a nut on some custom shop NGD porn. But the issue is that Skervesen has said that they're going to take responsibility for the case and will send it. That IS good customer service, BUT their handling was less than superior.
But that comes with a caveat: Skervesen isn't a huge company. They immediately opened the claim with the shipper and were waiting for that to be resolved before giving the customer a new case. In all reality, that case was still functional even with the 3" crack. It's not going to save the guitar from a flood, but let's be honest, that case was never going to anyways. The rep said they didn't have any cases in, a position bolstered by the fact that their website shows no in stock guitars right now.
As someone who has to handle customer service for a small company, I can relate. I see "severely smashed case" then it's a 3" crack and the guitar is fine, I'd assure them a replacement and take the steps necessary to get it handled. And I've been in the position where I was waiting on the third party to chime in and then forgot about the email until it came back up again. Not a good practice, but mistakes happen.
Between awaiting the response from UPS some cases went in and out, the rep probably had it on the backburner. Email sent and correction will be made. Does it suck, yes, but this isn't like Fender or Gibson. And admittedly the case doesn't look like it was worth what the OP paid for it. IMO, he should just ship the case back, get the refund and buy a better case while letting Skervesen deal with the damaged goods. OP didn't seem extraordinarily happy with the way the guitar fit in the case anyways.
Let's not forget that because Skervesen charges thousands for a guitar doesn't mean they're making thousands on that guitar. The difference between eating 130 Euros or Pounds or whatever on that case plus double shipping could be a significant cost that they, for better or worse, couldn't afford to pull out of pocket.
I'm with the OP, not his problem, but I don't think anything about this is indicative of Skervesen deserving the kind of criticism that Vik, Bernie Rico or however many other custom shops that have and will straight up rip people off.

Let's just say this thread went as planned and other chimed in about their experiences. The second someone on the BRJ scammed list posts, the original complaint seems petty in comparison.

TL;DR - WE WANT MOAR PICS. Always.

To the OP: Post up that Skervesen already!

 

[technomancer]

Um......

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading this thread. Your all being assholes to this dude. There is not a damn thing wrong with wanting to get what you paid for. If the guy ordered a guitar and a case, he should get them without damage. I dont see why everyone has to be a dick about it???

Its baffeling how you guys act like hes wrong. I know 4 months isnt a long time, but the fact that he was told one thing, and then treated to another makes it an issue of principal.

Also, someone mentioned what does it matter that its a custom shop or a production shop? Well, a custom shop should have a higher attention to detail and superb customer service to be a great custom shop. If they kinda yank the customers chain, and dont deliver the item as ordered, then why shouldnt he be able to make a thread.

I actually agree with you

As for that last part, I mentioned it didn't matter as from the information he gave when I posted it wasn't clear if it was a dealer for a large brand or a small custom shop. Either way he was being jerked around and they should have given him a replacement case, or credit to buy a new case locally.

 

[Tom Drinkwater]

Almost everything I've ever ordered that arrived via freight truck, fedex, UPS or USPS required that I inspect and make the claim on the product I received. Some companies will go above and beyond and send free replacements or parts but I wouldn't expect that.

I shipped a used baritone strat to Montana a few years back and it was obviously hit with a forklift but I wasn't allowed to file a claim because the policies required the receiver of the shipment to inspect and make that claim with the shipping company. That was USPS using FedEx as transport. The buyer of the guitar and I both felt screwed so we split the repair cost 50/50. He went on to file a claim which got denied after 90 days, big surprise there, right? The only reason I could afford to be that nice is because the guy had a friend that was a tech and could do the repair for well under the going rate.

 

[protest]

This thread brings up an interesting topic.

I want everybody who's opinion is that Skervesen is to be held accountable for UPS's damage and bad customer service to put themselves in Skerv's shoes. Imagine shipping a used guitar that you sold to somebody on eBay and the shipper damages it and then drags their feet for months on the claim and then denies it. Are you to be held accountable for UPS's bad business practices? If the answer is no then I'd like to hear why you believe that a manufacturer or custom shop should be held to a different standard.

This is why I'm always nervous when I sell something, and the reason I pack my stuff like it's got to go through the gates of hell to get to the buyer. If I send something that gets broken I expect to have to refund them their money and then file a claim with FedEx/UPS/USPS and eventually probably sue them because they're all dicks with fake "insurance" that they make you pay for.

I'm also not a company. They're a fairly large custom shop that someone just gave a lot of money to. The damage in this situation is to $150-200 case, not to the entire shipment. It's an easy, relatively inexpensive fix for them.

 

[7 Strings of Hate]

I actually agree with you

Now I think YOUR taking crazy pills

 

[tedtan]

This thread brings up an interesting topic.

I want everybody who's opinion is that Skervesen is to be held accountable for UPS's damage and bad customer service to put themselves in Skerv's shoes. Imagine shipping a used guitar that you sold to somebody on eBay and the shipper damages it and then drags their feet for months on the claim and then denies it. Are you to be held accountable for UPS's bad business practices? If the answer is no then I'd like to hear why you believe that a manufacturer or custom shop should be held to a different standard.

In addition to what 7 Strings of Hate posted above, as a business that ships their goods to their customers, Skervesyn have to take these kinds of risks into account and allow for them in their pricing. Why? Because they are a business that expects to reap the rewards of repeat business, referrals and the general goodwill that they derive from taking care of their customers. The alternative is to reap the "rewards" of poor customer service and we all know where that leads, especially in a small market segment like relatively expensive custom guitars, because of posts on forums like this.

 

[Tom Drinkwater]

This is why I'm always nervous when I sell something, and the reason I pack my stuff like it's got to go through the gates of hell to get to the buyer. If I send something that gets broken I expect to have to refund them their money and then file a claim with FedEx/UPS/USPS and eventually probably sue them because they're all dicks with fake "insurance" that they make you pay for.

I'm also not a company. They're a fairly large custom shop that someone just gave a lot of money to. The damage in this situation is to $150-200 case, not to the entire shipment. It's an easy, relatively inexpensive fix for them.

The manufacturer is replacing the case which I believe is a good business move but I don't believe that they are morally, ethically or legally obligated to do so, they didn't break it. And then this guy posts a thread about how disappointed he is when the manufacturer is actually taking care of him. WTF is wrong with people.

 

[narad]

They really need to do a better job of getting cases that fit their shapes better (i.e. charge more and buy one of those fitted rifle cases where you can carve out the foam insert yourself) or change their shapes to fit the cases they keep ordering.

Yea, honestly the SKB cases are about $50 more and you could pretty much ship them without a box and be completely fine (not that I'm suggesting it! )

 

[HighGain510]

This thread brings up an interesting topic.

I want everybody who's opinion is that Skervesen is to be held accountable for UPS's damage and bad customer service to put themselves in Skerv's shoes. Imagine shipping a used guitar that you sold to somebody on eBay and the shipper damages it and then drags their feet for months on the claim and then denies it. Are you to be held accountable for UPS's bad business practices? If the answer is no then I'd like to hear why you believe that a manufacturer or custom shop should be held to a different standard.

Yes, you are accountable for what you ship. All shipping companies have certain standards that must be maintained to consider a product "properly packaged" if you want them to honor a damage claim, which includes a certain dimension worth of appropriate packing material. It's usually several inches and must be something like thick bubble wrap or those bags that can be filled with the expanding foam to form-fit around the item to ensure safety. If you're shipping it, you need to pack to those requirements, and as long as the recipient shows them the proof that there was in fact enough packing material per their standard, they CAN'T deny the claim if it was truly their fault it was damaged. They will ALWAYS try to avoid paying out, but as long as you have picture proof of the packaging used and that the measurements meet their guidelines, you won't have to pay out of pocket. It might take a while to resolve the claim, but they can't refuse to honor it if you paid for insurance and followed their policy.

I hold no sympathy for folks who underpack or don't use the manufacturer's original packaging and then complain that the buyer is asking for a partial/full refund when the shipping company tells you to fuck off because you threw it in a box and surrounded it with crumpled newspapers or a thin layer of the weak bubblewrap. The only time I've had to get a package of mine covered under a claim was due to FedEx literally ramming a forklift into the center of the box (there was still yellow paint on the cardboard and case from the forklift... fail...) which punctured the case and hit the guitar inside, through several inches of bubble wrap. Guess who won the claim? Me, because I followed their standards and despite it clearly being their fault the box was punctured by the fork lift, they would have said it was "underpacked" if I hadn't followed their guidelines for honoring insurance. So coming back around, YES, I feel you are accountable if your claim gets thrown out because usually the only way they can do that is because you didn't pack it well enough.

The pics in this case didn't show how much packing material there was inside the case, but my guess based on the box size is that perhaps they didn't adhere to the UPS standard for insured packages, and that's why they won't win the shipping damage claim. On guitars I ship out I try to add extra packing material whenever possible, or if I'm using OEM packing material and it only has a top and bottom insert to suspend the case in the box, I try to put SOME bubble wrap around the case as well whenever possible just to help add a little extra cushion since you know regardless of what service you're using, the guys moving those boxes do not intend to treat them with care since they're being paid to move as many packages as they can as quickly as they can.

If you're the small builder shipping out an instrument you completed for a customer, the ONUS is absolutely on you to ensure the instrument is packed to whatever the requirement is with the carrier for insurance purposes in addition to getting the item there safely. It literally took me 30 seconds on google to find UPS' shipping preparation guidelines, they outline what is considered their proper packaging requirement with both dimensions for how thick the padding material must be (2" on every side, it seems?) as well as a list of packing materials and what they should/shouldn't be used for if you're shipping with them.

Step 2. Provide Internal Protection
It is important to cushion the contents of your package properly.

Please be sure that you wrap each item separately. Fragile articles need separation from each other, and from the corners, sides, top, and bottom of the box.

Each item should be surrounded by at least two inches (5.08 cm) of cushioning and be placed at least two inches (5.08 cm) away from the walls of the box. This prevents product-against-product damage and protects contents from shock and vibration, which can pass from the outside of the box to the contents.

Please use proper cushioning material, combined with a strong outer container, to protect your shipment fully. Make sure you use enough cushioning material to ensure that the contents do not move when you shake the container.

Improper cushioning material includes clothing, blankets, towels, newspaper/newsprint, and pillows. Instead, please use the materials listed below to cushion and protect your shipment:


Air-encapsulated plastic (small and large cell bubble sheeting)

Designed to protect and cushion lightweight items
Used in multiple wraps and layers to ensure that the item is completely protected, especially on corners and edges


Inflatable packaging (air bags)

Used primarily as void-fill materials for lightweight items
Not recommended for items with sharp corners or edges
Extreme hot or cold temperatures may affect the ability of air bags to provide adequate product protection.


Expanded polystyrene "peanuts" (loose fill)

Used primarily as void-fill material for lightweight items
Overfill the box with loose fill, gently close the flaps, and seal securely
Do not use with flat or narrow products that may move to the edge or bottom of the carton in transit
Due to the shifting and settling properties of peanuts, it is recommended that a minimum of two inches (5.08 cm) of cushioning be used around the contents
It is recommended that flat pieces of corrugated fiberboard be used between contents and peanuts to help prevent migration through the peanuts
Peanuts cause static electricity and may damage electronic items. Anti-static peanuts should be used for electronic items. Use plastic bags, bubble sheeting, or other items to wrap the item so peanuts will not work themselves into areas that may cause harm to your merchandise.


Engineered foam enclosures

Materials may include expanded polystyrene, polyethylene, polypropylene, or copolymers
Enclosures should be pre-engineered for specific products


Foam-in-place/Foam-in-bag

A foam, sprayed into the box or mixed in packets, that expands and forms a protective mold around contents
Must be properly used, with even foam distribution around the contents
Because this material is offered in varying densities, it is important to select the most appropriate foam to meet the requirements of the product


Corrugated liners and inserts

May be added to the package to increase strength and improve package performance


Crumpled kraft paper

Used primarily as a void-fill material for light-to-medium weight, non-fragile items and items that are suitable for such packing materials
Must be tightly crumpled
Place at least two inches (5.08 cm) of paper between contents and outer box


Note: Fragile objects such as electronics, glass, ceramics, and artwork, require special packaging for safe shipment. Packages containing these and similar items may require added cushioning or a double (over) box.

They pretty much tell you what is and is not acceptable for the types of items you're shipping (protip: if you always use the heavy duty bubblewrap and at least 2" worth of it on all sides, you're good... anything they say is "light-to-medium weight" does NOT apply to packing a guitar), so if you followed that, they would not have denied any type of shipping damage claim. If you did follow that and you lost the claim, you're doing something wrong.

 

[protest]

The manufacturer is replacing the case which I believe is a good business move but I don't believe that they are morally, ethically or legally obligated to do so, they didn't break it. And then this guy posts a thread about how disappointed he is when the manufacturer is actually taking care of him. WTF is wrong with people.

He posted this thread after 4 months of waiting, and being told he was going to get it and never getting it. The manufacturer has not taken care of him. That's the whole point. And yea if it was me I would probably have not posted it yet since he just got another email saying they were going to send it out, but lets not act like he's crazy for posting it. He's waited long enough for something that takes minimal effort from the company to fix. I mean they could have just said: do you want $100 back, so you can go buy your own?

 

[7 Dying Trees]

Seriously, without seeing the guitar, the only answer I'm going to give is:

Case damage minor, you can either sweat your balls of for a new case or just gaffa tape it. In all seriousness, that case is going to look way worse once you've had it in the back of a van, car, flown it etc. THose plastic cases take a little beating, but don't do well with pressure applied to them. Reason there's a crack is shipping company put something heavy on top of it, which then caused a stress crack.

Buy a new, decent, case. Made from wood panelling, or a flight case.

THe case you have now is not roadworthy, and a replacemnt case won't be roadworthy either.

 

[7 Dying Trees]

I've had a few cases for at least 7 years (one is 18 years old). Have seen many gigs and have travelled thousands of miles by air, sea and land as I've lived in four different countries. Not one case is in this condition, and this one is supposed to be brand new! IF cases are going to get trashed, I expect them to be in time, because of wear, by me. Not right out of the gate, before I've had the chance to use it for the first time.

Which is why I'm not going to buy something, have it arrive in this shape, and be cool with it, either. Never have in the past while buying not only guitars and basses, but also cabs, heads and rack gear, as well as TVs, computers, sound systems, etc. So why start now?

However, not getting what I payed for, whatever the reason, is one thing, but not one that bothers me. Seeing this issue being unresolved for almost four months and counting and feeling like it hasn't been addressed properly is a different thing. That's what bothers me. Just got to a point where I felt like this was worth sharing.

I must add, i agree that you should get what you paid for.

However, you must have been lucky with your cases, the amount of cases that have had locks ripped off, have had corners crushed, splits, and other damage I've had from touring/flying/giging locally is insane. I'll only fly in flightcases now, same with gigging, main guitars go in heavy ass flight cases.

 

[Tom Drinkwater]

What's the difference between you dropping your TV and the dude from Best Buy that's carrying it to your car dropping it?

/\ This is what I'm talking about. This mentality is wrong. There is a 3rd party involved when shipping a guitar. That 3rd party is responsible for shipping the guitar. Leveraging your position by threatening to or making a bad public review on a product or service to get money back or free product from the manufacturer sounds a lot like extortion. The only reason people go after the manufacturer isn't because the manufacturer is liable, they have the most to lose if bad reviews get out so they are the easiest way to get paid. Sorry but it's dishonest anyway you slice it.

I get what people are saying about proper packaging and I'm will to bet Skervesen can pack a guitar properly in a box otherwise I'm sure we'd have a sticky on the topic by now.

 

[HighGain510]

The manufacturer is replacing the case which I believe is a good business move but I don't believe that they are morally, ethically or legally obligated to do so, they didn't break it. And then this guy posts a thread about how disappointed he is when the manufacturer is actually taking care of him. WTF is wrong with people.

Not that you're biased or anything... Read my post above. They LIKELY didn't follow the UPS terms and didn't pack 2" around every side, which is why the thing got punctured like that and they can deny the damage claim. If Skervesen chose to underpack so any insurance claims with the carrier would be automatically denied without any chance to fight the claim, they are absolutely both legally and ethically required to handle the damaged item, regardless of it being the case or the guitar itself. Both were items the buyer paid for and their inability (or incompetence for not reading the shipping guidelines when running a business that requires them to ship items to their buyers) to package properly resulted in the item being damaged in transit.

They may not have been the ones to trample the box, but by not packing adequately to ensure the insurance claim could be filed and won if UPS damaged his box, the responsibility still falls on them to make the buyer whole on that one. This is business 101, so the fact that you're so adamantly fighting it calls into question your own business outlook. If you underpacked and shipped an item to a buyer that got busted in transit, it shouldn't be a 50/50 split, that responsibility for ensuring the item gets there safely falls on the SHIPPER, not the buyer. Accidents in shipping happen all the time, but adhering to the standards of the carrier for insurance purposes falls on you, the shipper, and by not doing so you have now made yourself the responsible party for any damage that takes place during transit. Not sure how/why you would question that morally, ethically OR legally... that case has been put forth many times before and historically, an item not packed to the letter of the carrier's requirement for insurable parcels that is damaged in transit falls back on the party shipping the item, not the shipping company.

 

[wiretap]

But really, am I the only one who thinks it's crazy how cheap and shitty of a case that is to accompany what is supposedly a high-end custom instrument? And not even form-fitted? Or is that par for the course for these hype builders?

 

[protest]

/\ This is what I'm talking about. This mentality is wrong. There is a 3rd party involved when shipping a guitar. That 3rd party is responsible for shipping the guitar. Leveraging your position by threatening to or making a bad public review on a product or service to get money back or free product from the manufacturer sounds a lot like extortion. The only reason people go after the manufacturer isn't because the manufacturer is liable, they have the most to lose if bad reviews get out so they are the easiest way to get paid. Sorry but it's dishonest anyway you slice it.I get what people are saying about proper packaging and I'm will to bet Skervesen can pack a guitar properly in a box otherwise I'm sure we'd have a sticky on the topic by now.

I had a response for all this, but I just stopped.

You were talking before about what good business is, but what you're doing right now is bad business because I wouldn't buy anything from you based off the things you've said in this thread.

If I remember correctly Matt had a guitar that UPS dropped off without getting a signature. Someone stole it from his porch, and so PRS built him a new one. That is good business, that's how you keep people coming back.

 

[narad]

But really, am I the only one who thinks it's crazy how cheap and shitty of a case that is to accompany what is supposedly a high-end custom instrument? And not even form-fitted? Or is that part for the course for these hype builders?

Same case that Daemoness and blackmachine use...

 

[wiretap]

Same case that Daemoness and blackmachine use...

Haha, go figure.