Cutest boys in metal

[Grief]

Also what you said about feminism, is not really accurate. It's everyone's responsibility. If I sit in a room full of only white guys and someone says something bad about black people, I reserve the right to criticize that dick. And if he instead says something bad about women, I also reserve the right to criticize the dick. Why? Because if there were actual black people or women in the room, the dick would've waited until they left before speaking ill about them, so they couldn't have defended themselves regardless. This forum is no different, we're mostly dudes here and the jargon reflects that. If any change is gonna happen here there has to be some dudes involved

Thanks to all for your input of young girls learning guitar. It's good to hear some other input.

I'm afraid that analogy above is really bad, because the proposal here seems more akin to you going up to the black guy and telling him he's not being the black guy you think he should be and that it's the fault of you and the other white guys to do something about.

That's where we were some pages back with Maria Brink isn't it? Just to clarify that position it's that women are exploited by/because of men and somehow it should be stopped? And further if it were that there are lots of women keen to gravitate to metal music?

My proposal is essentially Maria's a clever girl I'm sure and quite aware of what she is doing. And further that from what i've seen there's plenty of subcultural space for women and anyone should they choose to participate. Such as we might suggest has been availed of by Kim Kelly and the previously discussed female and transwoman headed UK extreme metal press.

 

[JohnIce]

Thanks to all for your input of young girls learning guitar. It's good to hear some other input.

I'm afraid that analogy above is really bad, because the proposal here seems more akin to you going up to the black guy and telling him he's not being the black guy you think he should be and that it's the fault of you and the other white guys to do something about.

That's where we were some pages back with Maria Brink isn't it? Just to clarify that position it's that women are exploited by/because of men and somehow it should be stopped? And further if it were that there are lots of women keen to gravitate to metal music?

My proposal is essentially Maria's a clever girl I'm sure and quite aware of what she is doing. And further that from what i've seen there's plenty of subcultural space for women and anyone should they choose to participate. Such as we might suggest has been availed of by Kim Kelly and the previously discussed female and transwoman headed UK extreme metal press.

I want to understand your point but I really don't see it in regards to anything I've posted in this thread. I think you either misunderstood me, or I'd need you to elaborate so I see what you're saying.

- edit - Oh and DarkWolf, I had to google your fedora=autism thing and it's apparently a 4chan joke. It has nothing to do with actual autism. We're having a grownup debate here, don't bring 4chan into it please.

 

[flint757]

Thanks to all for your input of young girls learning guitar. It's good to hear some other input.

I'm afraid that analogy above is really bad, because the proposal here seems more akin to you going up to the black guy and telling him he's not being the black guy you think he should be and that it's the fault of you and the other white guys to do something about.

That's where we were some pages back with Maria Brink isn't it? Just to clarify that position it's that women are exploited by/because of men and somehow it should be stopped? And further if it were that there are lots of women keen to gravitate to metal music?

My proposal is essentially Maria's a clever girl I'm sure and quite aware of what she is doing. And further that from what i've seen there's plenty of subcultural space for women and anyone should they choose to participate. Such as we might suggest has been availed of by Kim Kelly and the previously discussed female and transwoman headed UK extreme metal press.

It's a matter of expectations. Do X to succeed or you don't succeed at all sort of thing. That applies to black people as well actually. I've seen it numerous times where rather mundane things are praised for minorities as if the majority of them are incapable of being what they expect. Like in an annual review saying that you're professional or well spoken. It's a white collar job, that is pretty much the default behavior. Being praised for doing nothing is quite the indicator of what their preconceived notions of you were before they even hired you. A lot of the necessary changes do have to happen outside of the community mostly affected.

 

[Grief]

^Well the point is that it's the way women are presenting themselves that is the problem. Who are we as mere men to say they can't do sexy photo shoot? Your position is that somehow they should be prevented from doing so for benefit of other women?

 

[flint757]

Did I say that? No. Quite the leap...

They can do as they please and if that is what they wish more power to them (same with guys for that matter); I've said this before here as well so you shouldn't have been confused. What I'm saying is the environment we live in creates a set of expectations that most people either have to conform to, or think they have to conform to, to succeed. That statement is not gender specific either. It just applies to women in what we are currently discussing.

 

[JohnIce]

^Well the point is that it's the way women are presenting themselves that is the problem. Who are we as mere men to say they can't do sexy photo shoot? Your position is that somehow they should be prevented from doing so for benefit of other women?

Alright, I see what you're saying now But no, that has never been my point, and if it comes across that way I'm glad you pointed it out so I can be more clear.

In my opinion, the way women present themselves, sexy or otherwise, is not the problem at all. In fact, this whole thread originally had nothing to do with women changing, and everything to do with men changing. But some guys here are just doing their best to shift the responsibilities (and blame) towards women instead. I'm pretty sure neither I nor the people like Aion, flint757, Necris and Eliguy are making a case that women are responsible for the problems discussed in this thread.

 

[Grief]

It's a matter of expectations. Do X to succeed or you don't succeed at all sort of thing.

Looks like I took a bad analogy and somehow made it worse h aha.

Anyhow, totally agree it is part of expectation of women and also increasingly so of men. The men photos in Kim's piece are good evidence that days are coming to an end for men in metal photoshoot of chuck on a faded tshirt and look like you all only eat Spam (that's you Amon Amarth).

What happens next? Will there be queue of slovenly men next to queue of average-looking girls waiting for all those fit, hot tosspots to get out of the way?

I agree those expectations are there, just maybe not that they create a problem as others have posited.

 

[coreysMonster]

I promised myself to not get into any more feminism arguments on the internet but this thread is making it really hard.

I'm just gonna say things without arguing, these are just statements of how I see things:

- Snark is a terrible way of getting a point across and has never changed anybody's mind about anything, ever.

- The internet is a really, really, really bad place to talk about politics, especially something as heated as feminism, and it's only getting worse thanks to very loud, very vocal minorities

- Having different opinions is okay, the important thing to agree on is that women are people and should have equal rights, and yes, there is also benevolent sexism towards women, but that's still sexism

- That Lucas Mann video is hilarious, every single time

- When, for the love of god, are we going to make the SSO hot guys in metal list

 

[Eliguy666]

I'll always encourage sexual freedom in people, women and men, and everyone in between or otherwise, alike. The issue is that I feel like the current social climate makes that the only way for many women to succeed in music.

 

[flint757]

Looks like I took a bad analogy and somehow made it worse h aha.

Anyhow, totally agree it is part of expectation of women and also increasingly so of men. The men photos in Kim's piece are good evidence that days are coming to an end for men in metal photoshoot of chuck on a faded tshirt and look like you all only eat Spam (that's you Amon Amarth).

What happens next? Will there be queue of slovenly men next to queue of average-looking girls waiting for all those fit, hot tosspots to get out of the way?

I agree those expectations are there, just maybe not that they create a problem as others have posited.

Inherently I don't necessarily think it poses a problem. It certainly isn't always a problem, but I'm sure it has been and will be in the future. The issue is when it is in fact a problem you'll never know because the result is the absence of a result. That is something that is very hard to objectively measure when there are a multitude of factors involved.

Sounds like we mostly agree though. The only difference lies in how we view the effects of the conclusion, but we've both reached the same conclusion nonetheless.

I promised myself to not get into any more feminism arguments on the internet but this thread is making it really hard.

I'm just gonna say things without arguing, these are just statements of how I see things:

- Snark is a terrible way of getting a point across and has never changed anybody's mind about anything, ever.

- The internet is a really, really, really bad place to talk about politics, especially something as heated as feminism, and it's only getting worse thanks to very loud, very vocal minorities

- Having different opinions is okay, the important thing to agree on is that women are people and should have equal rights, and yes, there is also benevolent sexism towards women, but that's still sexism

- That Lucas Mann video is hilarious, every single time

- When, for the love of god, are we going to make the SSO hot guys in metal list

Definitely needs to happen.

Might be better if it happens in 2 separate threads though (I don't think this one can be salvaged for that cause ). One for people to offer suggestions and another to vote.

 

[Grief]

In my opinion, the way women present themselves, sexy or otherwise, is not the problem at all. In fact, this whole thread originally had nothing to do with women changing, and everything to do with men changing. But some guys here are just doing their best to shift the responsibilities (and blame) towards women instead. I'm pretty sure neither I nor the people like Aion, flint757, Necris and Eliguy are making a case that women are responsible for the problems discussed in this thread.

It's very interesting, but I do still wonder where, specifically in regard to metal music these women might be? Eli had a bash at some evidence but there really didn't seem much there that as either recent or tangible. Could this not simply be market serving itself?

I'd also be really interested to hear how you propose, If we agree for time being there is a problem in music press, for it to be solved. Particularly in light of commercial industry and of course dwindling physical media and print sales.

 

[flint757]

That's a much grander problem that has to begin with the people. Commercials, ads, PR Campaigns, etc. mirror the opinions of the people they are trying to communicate with. If the metal community, in this case, changed their perception then so would the rest.

 

[Grief]

I'll always encourage sexual freedom in people, women and men, and everyone in between or otherwise, alike. The issue is that I feel like the current social climate makes that the only way for many women to succeed in music.

I agree with this and would add that it is increasingly the case for men too. Maybe when all the men have to be buff more women will be interested?

 

[Eliguy666]

1. Start listening to Abnormality and some of the good Eluveitie vocals of Ana's
2. ... crap. I really don't know many other female artists. Is Angela Gossow's solo project going well?

I think Silje Wergeland is a pretty great vocalist, but don't know how metal her stuff is, just familiar with some Katatonia appearances.
Anette Olzon is also pretty damn good in Nightwish and Swallow the Sun.

 

[troyguitar]

Did I say that? No. Quite the leap...

They can do as they please and if that is what they wish more power to them (same with guys for that matter); I've said this before here as well so you shouldn't have been confused. What I'm saying is the environment we live in creates a set of expectations that most people either have to conform to, or think they have to conform to, to succeed. That statement is not gender specific either. It just applies to women in what we are currently discussing.

Alright, I see what you're saying now But no, that has never been my point, and if it comes across that way I'm glad you pointed it out so I can be more clear.

In my opinion, the way women present themselves, sexy or otherwise, is not the problem at all. In fact, this whole thread originally had nothing to do with women changing, and everything to do with men changing. But some guys here are just doing their best to shift the responsibilities (and blame) towards women instead. I'm pretty sure neither I nor the people like Aion, flint757, Necris and Eliguy are making a case that women are responsible for the problems discussed in this thread.

So, would either of you care to share your thoughts on what you ARE saying instead of making people guess at your opinion and then you coming back with "I NEVER SAID THAT!"?

Please be as explicit as possible:

What is the problem?

What is the solution?

 

[Grief]

^ that's all my fault for not quoting properly - sorry

 

[Louis Cypher]

How many women have actually posted their thoughts on this thread? Coz surely as a woman they are far better placed to comment on sexism objectification etc etc in metal and guitar playing that's all being discussed here? I am gonna go out on a limb and say based on the 8 pages so far, not very many..... tbh if I was female I would probably be giving this thread a miss too

 

[Eliguy666]

How many women have actually posted their thoughts on this thread? Coz surely as a woman they are far better placed to comment on sexism objectification etc etc in metal and guitar playing that's all being discussed here?

*Chokey Chicken posts*
"Well... uhh... that doesn't count!"

 

[JohnIce]

So, would either of you care to share your thoughts on what you ARE saying instead of making people guess at your opinion and then you coming back with "I NEVER SAID THAT!"?

Please be as explicit as possible:

What is the problem?

What is the solution?

Sure thing

Problem: Sexism, and the millions of extra problems it entails for both men and women. Those problems are very similar to the problems caused by racism, homophobia, islamophobia, you name it. It's a threat against equal opportunity, and in large doses it can spark sexual assault and domestic abuse.

Solution: Discussing and pointing out sexism, so that you can avoid being a part of the group that causes it. Most of us are raised sexist, by society. It's through discussions like these that we can get educated and with each generation slowly phase it out of society.

If you think that sounds bad, I honestly don't know what to tell you, man.

How many women have actually posted their thoughts on this thread? Coz surely as a woman they are far better placed to comment on sexism objectification etc etc in metal and guitar playing that's all being discussed here? I am gonna go out on a limb and say based on the 8 pages so far, not very many..... tbh if I was female I would probably be giving this thread a miss too

Very few, yes. Cause most of the posters here are men. Would it be awesome to hear more from women on this subject? Yes! But in their absence, I'm not one to leave sexist comments hanging when I have a counter-argument ready to go. And if there were more women posting here, I bet a lot of these comments would be much less "honest".

Anyhow as I mentioned before, random women are not by default an authority on sexism. The authorities on sexism are definitely women, but that's not the same thing. If you take all the women in the world who are racist, homophobic etc., I'm pretty sure none of them are feminists. Well, a feminist homophobe is pretty much an oxymoron.

These 2 girls are insanely talented...so I would like to know who put a gun to their heads to take these pics.

Probably the same people who put a gun to Dave Navarro's or Peter Steele's head... nobody. We covered this just a few posts ago.

 

[OmegaSlayer]

Pete Steele (might he rest in peace and much respect) had a dong that was more history defining than his ability on bass guitar.
These grrrlllls do really shredz.
Pete had more reason to pose naked than these girls. (and with more reasons I'm not making a pun, just referring that his talent was quite limited, so he could show some skin to equalize)