Dear Ibanez...where's...?

[asher]

That's decidedly not how economies of scale work

It's more than likely going to need to be a small run for it to be worth them dealing with custom specs at their factories.

 

[A-Branger]

That's decidedly not how economies of scale work

It's more than likely going to need to be a small run for it to be worth them dealing with custom specs at their factories.

not referring to custom work. Im talking about already existing models

for example. Ibanez sr premiums:

In Australia at this moment we can only get the sr1800 and the sr1200 series.
In USA you guys can get those two, plus the sr1400E and the sr1400TE

in the past you guys could get the SR1600 (blr top one), but you couldn't in AUS

and same deal applies to other basses and guitars and other countries.



so yeah If im going to my local shop, they are going to only have the SR1200 on the wall and if I ask for a catalog it would shomeme that and the 1800.

So Why I cant go and order the SR1600 or the SR1400??. I only would have to wait till their next shipment comes so my bass can come in there. maybe a 6 month wait? maybe, but Id be happy

it is taht or having to jump hoops in ebay, pay extra taxes, or getting an US adresss or currier service to ship there and they would ship to me (and still pay more taxes), or get a family member who lives there to send it to me, or get a plane ticket and get it myself, wait for a second hand one to hit the mayor stores, only then they are allowed to sell it to me.... etc etc

have you seen the RG721FM premium? beautiful natural mapple flame top, or the new Paul Guilbert PGM? oh yeah they are not available in the US... (as a quick example on the top of my head)...have fun organizing one from Europe, instead to casually go to your local shop




for a while I was GASing for the LTD ZH7, my shop oly has the AW7.. but hey were. Let me call my distribuitor.... the ZH7 cost $$$ and as it is not in stock you have to wait XXX for us to get it here

why Ibanez cant be like that?

 

[OmegaSlayer]

Max, that's my question.
Does a model/line/series sell horribly because it has not appeal or does it sell horribly because it kind of fall short?

I totally love my XPT700 but it's still an Indonesian made guitar with something cheap-y like the Edge III for example, bad fret access at the higher frets, painted neck and the timbers are probably not the best.
I snatched it in perfect condition, second hand for less than € 400,00 and its retail price was around € 700,00, so I am extremely happy.
Though I would have gladly forked more money for a more refined guitar with that shape.
Today I'll probably pick a Falchion for € 280,00.
I like the shape, but I know the timbers are crappish, Indonesian manufacturing at best, bad pups, bad bridge.
I've been thinking about picking this up for more than a year, because, again, I would have forked more for a more refined instrument.
When I picked the RG2228 I hated the dots, but it was the only 8 strings quality solution at the time, I'd rather had a plain not marked fretboard

 

[MaxOfMetal]

not referring to custom work. Im talking about already existing models

for example. Ibanez sr premiums:

In Australia at this moment we can only get the sr1800 and the sr1200 series.
In USA you guys can get those two, plus the sr1400E and the sr1400TE

in the past you guys could get the SR1600 (blr top one), but you couldn't in AUS

and same deal applies to other basses and guitars and other countries.



so yeah If im going to my local shop, they are going to only have the SR1200 on the wall and if I ask for a catalog it would shomeme that and the 1800.

So Why I cant go and order the SR1600 or the SR1400??. I only would have to wait till their next shipment comes so my bass can come in there. maybe a 6 month wait? maybe, but Id be happy

it is taht or having to jump hoops in ebay, pay extra taxes, or getting an US adresss or currier service to ship there and they would ship to me (and still pay more taxes), or get a family member who lives there to send it to me, or get a plane ticket and get it myself, wait for a second hand one to hit the mayor stores, only then they are allowed to sell it to me.... etc etc

have you seen the RG721FM premium? beautiful natural mapple flame top, or the new Paul Guilbert PGM? oh yeah they are not available in the US... (as a quick example on the top of my head)...have fun organizing one from Europe, instead to casually go to your local shop




for a while I was GASing for the LTD ZH7, my shop oly has the AW7.. but hey were. Let me call my distribuitor.... the ZH7 cost $$$ and as it is not in stock you have to wait XXX for us to get it here

why Ibanez cant be like that?

Did you even read my previous post?

Ibanez isn't the problem you're having, the importer is.

When Ibanez comes out with their new models and price lists each year they send them to distributors who then choose which models they want to order.

Distributors can often spot order, but they have to order more than one to make it worth it.

 

[Badside]

Ibanez isn't the problem you're having, the importer is.

When Ibanez comes out with their new models and price lists each year they send them to distributors who then choose which models they want to order.

Then the Canadian distributor is a moron...

Trems have been almost eradicated from the RG line up here. I know there had been demand for more hardtails, but doesn't it make sense to have superstrats come with trems? The ones that do are either cheapos with the dubious "Std DL Tremolo", or overpriced Premiums with the EZ-IIs that used to be on cheapos.
I'm not saying the Premium line is overpriced, I'm saying the models we get are: hardware that used to be on the Standard line + fancy veneer top = up to three times the price of the equivalent Standard model

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Then the Canadian distributor is a moron...

Trems have been almost eradicated from the RG line up here. I know there had been demand for more hardtails, but doesn't it make sense to have superstrats come with trems? The ones that do are either cheapos with the dubious "Std DL Tremolo", or overpriced Premiums with the EZ-IIs that used to be on cheapos.
I'm not saying the Premium line is overpriced, I'm saying the models we get are: hardware that used to be on the Standard line + fancy veneer top = up to three times the price of the equivalent Standard model

Efkay, the Canadian distributor, is kinda known for being pretty lame.

 

[Badside]

Efkay, the Canadian distributor, is kinda known for being pretty lame.

I needed a new superstrat recently, there was literally nothing interesting when looking at trem equipped models. All the while Jackson has a very complete line with decent models at all prices... but I prefer Ibanez's wider necks.

Thankfully was able to find a "NOS" 2014 model that still had the specs that are now reserved for Iron Label or Premium lines (3-piece neck, nicer inlays, matching headstock, Edge Zero-II trem)

 

[A-Branger]

Did you even read my previous post?

Ibanez isn't the problem you're having, the importer is.

When Ibanez comes out with their new models and price lists each year they send them to distributors who then choose which models they want to order.

Distributors can often spot order, but they have to order more than one to make it worth it.

I did read it, hence why I suggest to change the topic name to "dear Ibanez importers....."


Ibanez/distribuidors/importers,ect.... we are here to vent some steam and rant a bit. No one is going to "read this topic and make a change in their company structure" but hey, feels good to rant LOL


distributors get what 1, 2, maybe 3 big shipments per year into the country, after that they send it to the local shops. So my question is why I cant order my bass or guitar, and they would just "tick" this X bass on next order... so we have 10 of W model, 5 of Y model, 20 of Z model, and 1 of X model.

again, is not hurting, bankrupt anyone. It is possible to do, as for example, everyone has to offer the top Jem, Toni Abasi, and Jake B, signature. But (at least here) no-one would have one in store. the closest I have seen is the premium Jems and they have it up high on a wall behind the counter like "Im expensive, dont touch me unless u have the funds" (and that is a 1-2K premium)..... but anyone can order one of those 4K prestige signature guitars. And I bet you they would have 1 maybe 2 on stock on this country. So if someone can make a special order to get shipped one of those, why I can get my X bass or guitar shipped on the next lot too?


yes, I know the distributors make the call, but Ibanez seems to be the only brand who works under that plan. I dont see the same happening with ESP/LTD for example

 

[MaxOfMetal]

distributors get what 1, 2, maybe 3 big shipments per year into the country, after that they send it to the local shops. So my question is why I cant order my bass or guitar, and they would just "tick" this X bass on next order... so we have 10 of W model, 5 of Y model, 20 of Z model, and 1 of X model.

again, is not hurting, bankrupt anyone. It is possible to do, as for example, everyone has to offer the top Jem, Toni Abasi, and Jake B, signature. But (at least here) no-one would have one in store. the closest I have seen is the premium Jems and they have it up high on a wall behind the counter like "Im expensive, dont touch me unless u have the funds" (and that is a 1-2K premium)..... but anyone can order one of those 4K prestige signature guitars. And I bet you they would have 1 maybe 2 on stock on this country. So if someone can make a special order to get shipped one of those, why I can get my X bass or guitar shipped on the next lot too?


yes, I know the distributors make the call, but Ibanez seems to be the only brand who works under that plan. I dont see the same happening with ESP/LTD for example

Once again, you're not understanding how it works. They need to make the order worth while, importing a single low-profit item isn't profitable, especially if it's out of their usual order cycle.

The price and origin of the guitar/bass matters a lot too.

For instance, any of the MIJ stuff (whether it's Sugi, Prestige, or J.Custom) can be ordered "out of cycle" which means distributors hold a large inventory that they can then move to a retailer when the order is placed. They're lower movement, yet higher profit instruments so working that way is ideal. Also, Fujigen builds in batches which they then release to distributors, they're actually a surprisingly small facility considering their output.

The MII stuff is another story. They're made in much larger batches and then delivered in bigger quantities. Due to that it's much more expensive to order a single instrument, as the factories themselves ship in large quantities.

If you want the instrument, you're going to have to pay those "extra" costs of importation. It's not really fair to the dealer, or even the distributor for that matter, to cover the costs on such a relatively cheap instrument.

As for ESP/LTD, try getting an Edwards, Grassroots, Japanese Artist, or Navigator outside of Japan. When's the last time you saw a Japanese Schecter? All large companies do this to some extent, as not all markets are identical. Heck, even the large American companies do it, such as the Gibson Taks, and some Fender Japan artist models.

You're in Australia, which kinda makes it even harder as there's both a very small market, big import costs, and a single, unified importer and distributor. At least here in the US we have two distributors (HUSA and Chesbro), one of which has been known to get "out of market" models with minimal extra cost.

Max, that's my question.
Does a model/line/series sell horribly because it has not appeal or does it sell horribly because it kind of fall short?

The higher end they make the guitar or bass the more capital they need to invest in it's creation, both R&D and production.

You'll notice that about every year they, Ibanez (and really a lot of different companies), releases about 90% "safe" model like RGs and Sabers in traditional finishes with the usual specs and about 10% "new/exciting/different" things like 9-strings, fanned frets, short scale basses, etc.

Of that 10%, they're probably lucky to see about half of them sell well. It's a big risk, in financial terms, to bring unique instruments to market. By making them cheaper, if they fail, it won't be a serious hit.

But, it's not all about the money. Companies like Ibanez really rely on their distributors and retailers, without them and their support there would be no Ibanez. To that end, they need to produce guitars that WILL sell and not just sit and collect dust and force their dealers and distributors to take a loss. They need to keep the relationship good.

For everyone 10 people on the Internet who says they'll buy something, I'd say about .5 will. That's just how it is. While maybe a few folks would have spent $2k on a high end Xiphos, obviously folks didn't buy enough of them when they were less than half that and it took years to sell the remaining, even further reduced inventory. Not to mention the 700 series X-Models were pretty well regarded in the quality department.

The same thing happened with the RGA and RGT models, they were released at numerous price points, in tons of different (non-black even) colors, and they didn't really sell. Ibanez even tried bringing back the RGA (twice in fact!) and it again flopped, both the Indo and Japanese models.

 

[Vrollin]

You're in Australia, which kinda makes it even harder as there's both a very small market, big import costs, and a single, unified importer and distributor. At least here in the US we have two distributors (HUSA and Chesbro), one of which has been known to get "out of market" models with minimal extra cost.

I can ship a guitar from the states cheaper than i can across country... its bull ...., ive said it before, the distributors and the comoanies they work for need to sort their .... out in australia. The "local" market is now global thanks to cheap shipping and online shopping, its not the customers fault if the local market is falling under but the distributors for not being competitive enough...

 

[A-Branger]

I can ship a guitar from the states cheaper than i can across country... its bull ...., ive said it before, the distributors and the comoanies they work for need to sort their .... out in australia. The "local" market is now global thanks to cheap shipping and online shopping, its not the customers fault if the local market is falling under but the distributors for not being competitive enough...

I know, for some models sometimes is better for you to buy a cheap flight to LA, buy it there and flight back than just get it here.


funny thing, we are way closer to their factories.....


stupid aussie taxes

 

[OmegaSlayer]

I think this would sell a ton

And it's a guitar they already have Researched & Enginered

Also maybe the product cycle at one year is maybe a bit too short to reap fruits.
Is it really necessary to upgrade the colours in a series every year?
I also think that big brands have bad communication with the fan base, sometimes cryptic, while people nowadays can reach very good luthiers via mail and have good replies/relations.
Then Max, you obviously know a lot more, even more than you feel allowed to tell
But, from what I gather, the manufacturers are not in the best condition to make money, as lots of stuff doesn't exactly work their way.
Importers and stores included.
Every time I go to a store here in Italy I saw low or mid tier stuff (for every brand except Gibson and Fender).
How am I supposed to fork 2-3k of € for something I can't even try?
Yes it's available if you order it, but it's a blind try, so risk for risk, people ends up buying second hand if there's a chance.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I think this would sell a ton

And it's a guitar they already have Researched & Enginered

Also maybe the product cycle at one year is maybe a bit too short to reap fruits.
Is it really necessary to upgrade the colours in a series every year?
I also think that big brands have bad communication with the fan base, sometimes cryptic, while people nowadays can reach very good luthiers via mail and have good replies/relations.
Then Max, you obviously know a lot more, even more than you feel allowed to tell
But, from what I gather, the manufacturers are not in the best condition to make money, as lots of stuff doesn't exactly work their way.
Importers and stores included.
Every time I go to a store here in Italy I saw low or mid tier stuff (for every brand except Gibson and Fender).
How am I supposed to fork 2-3k of € for something I can't even try?
Yes it's available if you order it, but it's a blind try, so risk for risk, people ends up buying second hand if there's a chance.

That's not a factory model, it's a LACS. There's still tons of development needed to make that a production models, and then they need to convince distributors that a super high end RGA will sell even though MIJ RGAs have failed numerous times.

The problem is that brick and mortar music stores are dying. They can't afford to chuck $2k+ guitars on the sales floor all willy nilly just to significantly discount it after everyone beats on it while still not buying anything.

Most guitars at all price points are being bought online. The value in having floor models is very quickly going away.

The world's biggest musical instrument retailer, GC/MF is dying a slow, painful death because the stores are a financial nightmare to operate. I read an article recently that said for every dollar sold at GC about .30¢ was lost to discounted and damaged gear.

In this day and age trying before buying is a luxury.

 

[OmegaSlayer]

Yeah, it has become pretty clear, and, at the end of the fair, this new business model will bring no advantage to us customer.
If it wouldn't be for taxes, duty and this stuff, it would be easier for the manufacturer to sell directly to customers, and even better for us since a good chunk of the retail price (20-25%) would be cut.
Dunno where we're going with e-commerce but my guts don't like it.

And...I run a store, so I know what the problems are, but...you can't sell what you don't have.
2 weeks ago a friend of mine wanted to buy his first guitar, a Fender Mexican Telecaster, since he's in the Bon Jovi Italian Official Tribute band and wanted the one Jon uses, but couldn't afford the USA Tele.
We went to a store, tried the model, but it was Yellow with White pickguard instead of Black with White Pickguard.
He could have ordered it and have it in 2-3 days (long time because it was Friday), he phoned to another store and they had the B&W Mex Tele, so we went there and he picked his guitar and he payed it a good 10% more, but he could try it and pick it up immediately.
That day I wanted to try the Kiko, the Egen end the TAM, but they had the Premium ones, I could have tried them and think "the Prestige" will be like this but better...but how much better to justify the price which is 3-4 times more?

There are pro and cons in having a short selection in stores obviously, and I can't blame stores for lack of gear, but it really makes me sad to enter a full fetched musical instruments store and not see professional tier instruments or only brands that are sure sell.
Here in Roma is impossible to find a Jackson , 2 guys opened a store selling only ESP (LTD actually), BC Rich and Washburn and shut the store down in 2 years.
It's sad.

 

[A-Branger]

its because most of the sales they do are cheap entry level instruments. People who are getting into music first time and go to a store an they can quick buy it.

people who are whilling to spend 2-4K on a guitar are pretty rare. I know it seems odd but again this is a forum dedicated to us, taht kind of people, and people who would get multiple instruments. My "latest" bass already has 14 years with me, and prob now is when I want a new one. My guitar was 5 years old before I jsut bought my second one..... people like here who would buy lots, well you already know them lol, they are no more.

So having a 4K guitar sitting on a store so you can go, try, and say "mmm the 2K one is not that much different.... would think about it" is not proffitable for them, it is a huge risk. Maybe in USA woudl be fine, but in here in Australia they jack the prices so high due to stupid import taxes that people who are going to get that kind of guitar know that it would be way to expensive to do so here and they would buy it online from overseas somehow

 

[Rawkmann]

Then there's the 540pII which is a total blast from the past, seriously cool looking guitar, but Ibanez never tried a reissue to gauge the market's interest.

I'm with You on this whole Ibanez issue. Look at Ibanez lineup for 2009 which is where I fell they hit their pinnacle. My cousin and I were discussing the ultimate Ibanez guitar would be 540pII shape, neck through, possibly even arch top, 24 fret super wizard neck.

 

[celticelk]

Yeah, it has become pretty clear, and, at the end of the fair, this new business model will bring no advantage to us customer.
If it wouldn't be for taxes, duty and this stuff, it would be easier for the manufacturer to sell directly to customers, and even better for us since a good chunk of the retail price (20-25%) would be cut.

Not necessarily - the manufacturers would have to maintain much more complex ordering, warehousing, and distribution systems than they do currently, and that would increase their costs.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I'm with You on this whole Ibanez issue. Look at Ibanez lineup for 2009 which is where I fell they hit their pinnacle. My cousin and I were discussing the ultimate Ibanez guitar would be 540pII shape, neck through, possibly even arch top, 24 fret super wizard neck.

Look up the Jackson Demon.

It's been available via the Custom Shop for many years.

Not necessarily - the manufacturers would have to maintain much more complex ordering, warehousing, and distribution systems than they do currently, and that would increase their costs.

I work in an industry similar to musical instrument distribution (three tier) and as fun as the concept of going direct sounds at this stage of the game it would be an absolute disaster with any theoretical gains instantly lost to increased staffing, shipping, and additional overhead of in-house distribution.

The system works for about 90% of people, so its likely going to be like this, three tier with online dealers, for a very long time.

 

[OmegaSlayer]

@A-Branger

I'll keep talking about the experience I had with that friend of mine and my experience.
That Tele was his first electric, he owned a Takamine already (guess what...the one Bon Jovi uses ), he wanted to go for the Squier Tele that looked like Bon Jovi's one.
Now, my first guitar was a Squier Strato...I know the cheap guitars limits, and how much they influence your playing.
With that Strato I had reached my limit, I couldn't play any better than I was playing.
Obviously I didn't knew or realized that, but when I got my Yamaha RGX custom, my hands were already on another level.
So I tried to convince my friend to fork money at least for a Mexican Fender because those cheap instruments seems cheap but at the end they cost way more than what they're worth.
Even the Mex Tele he picked for a whoooping € 560,00 was quite the turd in my eyes.
The fretwork was very good and left me impressed (though the frets itself were silly, soooo small) and the sound of the 2 combined pups is glorious, better than any guitar I have honestly and had a fairly good setup with decent action and stuff.
Still the guitar had a dead neck imho...there were parts where what you played simply died on itself, either plugged or unplugged.
For that money I got a 7 string Schecter Demon 5 years ago that never had a single problem, I take it at work, leave it in the heat, cold, dump, it took a lot of hits and its neck never moved.
But people who's not informed will pick the brand and the guitar of their idol and not check the prices.
I've come to the conclusion that buying a cheap guitar, unless you want to mod the hell out of it (and it might cost you more than a good stock guitar), is really a bad investment.

In the case of Ibanez, if you buy lower than a Premium, you'll buy an instrument that is probably worse quality wise than a Schecter or LTD in the same price range.

At this point I do really think that the biggest market for Iron Label and Premium lines are the modders which are way less than the entry level kiddo who'll probably pick a Squier, an Epiphone or some guitar with an extreme shape.
But that poor kiddo (or my uninformed friend who's 32) is going to bring home a guitar that will not benefit him.

Silly stuff...his Richie Sambora's friend who came to the store with us, knew the difference of Fender guitars through the years but couldn't tell the difference of rosewood and maple fretboard in sound and he said that the rosewood is only glued to the maple to prevent wearing...I facepalmed and the clerk there just said "erm...NO!"

Yeah, we're the crazy guys here, undoubtely, but we're the spearhead of the market.
It mind sound biased and presumptuous, but our pickyness and thickness pave the way to make kiddos find better stuff in stores.

 

[surge]

I think this would sell a ton

And it's a guitar they already have Researched & Enginered

As much as I would fkn LOVE to see that as a production model, Ibanez still wouldn't be able to sell it in the USA due to the ZR2 bridge patent issue

I think that's why they have scaled back the tremolo models to almost none on the Prestige lineup, especially 7 strings. The Edge Zero is patent-free from what I remember but the ZPS system is not -- some guy claims he "invented" that back in the 90s. I think that's why a lot of the EZ trems don't use the ZPS system anymore outside of Japan.

That same guy has a patent on ball bearing tremolos too, which means the ZR2 is out. I am not that impressed with Ibanez's offerings as of late, even after seeing the new ones at NAMM 2016. I am glad I got an RG1527M at a steal before they were discontinued. IIRC there's only *two* seven string RG Prestige's now with a tremolo in the entire lineup; the rest are all hard tails -- and the premium RGs are totally discontinued in the USA as far as I know.

Not going to speak for anyone else but my thing is, I see the innovation that they have done in the past and I just feel like I missed out on a lot because a lot of it is no longer made, and it seems almost like a regression with their newer models, especially back to the Edge \ LoPro Edge trems...I know some people love those, but I am not one of those people
I would take a ZR2 or a SynchroniZR any day over those....but sadly both of those are banned in the USA now.