Do Jacksons sound worse than ESPs?

[nickgray]

Am I the only one who thinks they sound different?

Here's the second riff from the clip, but the two guitars switch every two seconds.

guitar players hyper-focus on things that are extremely trivial as far as "tone" goes

It even worse than that. The players hyper focus on the tone only they themselves will hear. You cannot use the same tones for production and practice, unless you like to practice with really shitty thin tones.

Another thing is that unless you're playing at very loud volumes or you're used closed headphones or IEMs at decent volumes, you'll get the unplugged sound of the guitar mixed together with the amped sound. Unplugged guitars can sound very different indeed, and strings can sound dramatically different unplugged as well (this is why players worry excessively over the brightness of the string, but it doesn't make nearly as much difference to the actual tone through the amp and cab).

 

[trem licking]

No, you're wrong.



Yeah, I think you're right that the trem is a culprit here... Also interesting info about 250k pots, I didn't know that.

Can't help but wonder if things like the Jackson pickup placement and other construction factors also play a role but I guess that stuff is impossible to really narrow down.

I'm not wrong. Even if you think i am, just buy the guitar you like the look/feel of better

 

[MaxOfMetal]

@eaeolian in here laying down the truth.

 

[Robslalaina]

I just don't think pots make that huge of a difference though. Slightly more or less treble bleed maybe but more than that? I can't really see it... but to be fair I have never compared a million different pots in my guitars... should I?

Yes you should. When I upgraded the electronics in my Strat with new CTS pots I initially couldn't get the spanky/stringy sound I wanted from the neck single coil. Turned out the pot I had used as master volume had a real value of something like 200-210k. Swapped it for another one that was somewhere between 245-255k IIRC and the difference was obvious. Pot value isn't only about having more or less treble since adding/removing treble doesn't just impact the treble frequencies you hear but your sound/tone as a whole.

Oh and wood does impact tone but it's not as black and white as ash = bright and hog = dark, at least not on solid body electrics. I had a Kelly with a thru body maple neck and basswood body and Floyd Special that had way more low end than a friend's all hog TOM Les Paul, despite having the same pickups, same pots, same strings, same tuning. The difference was ridiculous.

I stopped caring about so many things after both experiences above. Now I only buy guitars that feel good and look good on me because the rest has zero importance whatsoever. EDIT: Ah, build quality/cost ratio sort of matters too.

 

[tedtan]

Did you dial in the amp for the ESP and then play the Jackson through it, did you dial in the amp for the Jackson and then play the ESP through it, or dial it in to get the best tone from each guitar?

Also, why are you comparing a higher end ESP to a mid-tier Jackson? The Japanese Jacksons are usually pretty good, but an apples to apples comparison would be to compare a higher end ESP to a higher end Jackson, which would be a USA Select or a USA Custom Shop.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I just don't think pots make that huge of a difference though. Slightly more or less treble bleed maybe but more than that? I can't really see it... but to be fair I have never compared a million different pots in my guitars... should I?

How can you have such strong opinion when you didn't even know it was a thing until a few hours ago?

 

[Dr. Caligari]

Did you dial in the amp for the ESP and then play the Jackson through it, did you dial in the amp for the Jackson and then play the ESP through it, or dial it in to get the best tone from each guitar?

Also, why are you comparing a higher end ESP to a mid-tier Jackson? The Japanese Jacksons are usually pretty good, but an apples to apples comparison would be to compare a higher end ESP to a higher end Jackson, which would be a USA Select or a USA Custom Shop.

Hm, to be clear, that clip is just one I found, it's not my guitars/clip. When I talk about how my own guitars sound I'm talking more about impressions, I haven't recorded a good comparison myself. And neither the Jackson in the clip nor mine is mid tier.

How can you have such strong opinion when you didn't even know it was a thing until a few hours ago?

Don't understand. I did know pots were a thing.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Don't understand. I did know pots were a thing.

But you don't seem to understand how they work, and what they do to the sound of the guitar, until a few folks explained what's essential the ground level basics.

You also don't seem to have experience with swapping them.

It just seems weird to be so adamant that they're not a significant factor given the above.

Which is fine. It's just guitar stuff, nothing important.

 

[Dr. Caligari]

How can you have such strong opinion when you didn't even know it was a thing until a few hours ago?

To be more clear... I have a basic understanding of guitar electronics including wiring, pots and pot values etc. but not much more. Based on what I know I wouldn't expect pots to make a drastic difference to tone provided they work and have the same value.

But I don't mind learning and changing my views. But so far I haven't seen all that much to indicate that pots are a huge deal, that's all. Swapping pots is also nowhere near as popular as swapping pickups and I guess that contributes to my assumption that they're not as important.

 

[narad]

To be more clear... I have a basic understanding of guitar electronics including wiring, pots and pot values etc. but not much more. Based on what I know I wouldn't expect pots to make a drastic difference to tone provided they work and have the same value.

They often don't though.

 

[Dr. Caligari]

They often don't though.

Yeah and that's fair enough about tolerances and so.

I guess in this case my gut feeling was that it was some sort of construction thing that made the difference and maybe that was a reason why I sorta dismissed the electronics aspect.

But so do you guys pay attention to what quality pots you use? Will you actually swap pots in a high end guitar?

 

[bostjan]

To my ears, the ESP just sounds a little brighter, and your muting technique seems to be working better for you on the ESP. Those are the only two differences I hear.

As for the brightness, pots could absolutely be the difference. Do an quick experiment. Take a crocodile lead and short the wire from the switch (hot) to the jack (hot) and note how much brighter it sounds. I'm serious - do it. I guarantee that you will notice a difference. But also a hardtail bridge will necessarily sound brighter than a floating trem. The trem springs absorb some of the high frequencies, making the tone subtly darker. Even a blocked trem will do this. It's because the springs store mechanical energy, whether it is static (extension/compression) or vibrational (sound). The higher the frequency of the vibration, the more easily it is dissipated by the springs, so the less likely it is to make it through the pickups.

As for the muting technique, it can be tough adjusting between floating trems and hardtail bridges.

There are alos plenty of other factors that it could be. Is the pickup height the same? Is the action set the same? Are you using the same brand of strings? Are the strings new on both guitars? These sorts of subtle differences are impossible to pin down just from a clip, but it might be as simple as replacing the strings on both guitars with the same brand.

 

[Dr. Caligari]

Ok to be clear it's not my video!

 

[Blytheryn]

I just don't think pots make that huge of a difference though. Slightly more or less treble bleed maybe but more than that? I can't really see it... but to be fair I have never compared a million different pots in my guitars... should I?



My feeling is old/new strings make a difference for acoustics and bass/clean tones but that it doesn't really come through after distortion.

You’ll be able to tell the difference.

 

[narad]

Yeah and that's fair enough about tolerances and so.

I guess in this case my gut feeling was that it was some sort of construction thing that made the difference and maybe that was a reason why I sorta dismissed the electronics aspect.

But so do you guys pay attention to what quality pots you use? Will you actually swap pots in a high end guitar?

To be fair, everyone's throwing around their own theory in this thread. We don't know what it is. I personally feel that construction and materials do matter a lot more than typical pot and pickup tolerances. But I think the point is that in aggregate, there's a whole bloody mess of possible reasons why those guitars sound differently in that clip, so just thinking about it pragmatically there's little reason to think it varies on the level of an entire brand. I don't see why it couldn't be any of these things in this particular case. Obviously Jacksons don't consistently sound worse than ESPs in some sweeping way that everyone agrees with, that cuts across all model differences, individual guitar differences, parts and construction differences, differences in recording and micing, etc. You can't listen to that video and conclude anything at all.

 

[Dr. Caligari]

To be fair, everyone's throwing around their own theory in this thread. We don't know what it is. I personally feel that construction and materials do matter a lot more than typical pot and pickup tolerances. But I think the point is that in aggregate, there's a whole bloody mess of possible reasons why those guitars sound differently in that clip, so just thinking about it pragmatically there's little reason to think it varies on the level of an entire brand. I don't see why it couldn't be any of these things in this particular case. Obviously Jacksons don't consistently sound worse than ESPs in some sweeping way that everyone agrees with, that cuts across all model differences, individual guitar differences, parts and construction differences, differences in recording and micing, etc. You can't listen to that video and conclude anything at all.

I basically agree. But I mean, I was just trying to use the video as an example and wanted to hear peoples opinions. My intention wasn't to say "SEE, THEY'RE USELESS!". But maybe it came across like that a bit.

 

[Musiscience]

My personal opinion on this whole topic, not limiting to the specific examples of the OP is that regardless of the brand:

1) Many factors affect the sound of any instrument, guitars or otherwise.
2) Some factors have a larger impact than other. (Eg. electronics, hardware contact point, wood, set-up, workmanship, etc.).
3) Addressing as many minute details end up making a meaningful difference in the end and therefore:
a) Be clear what you are looking for sound wise.
b) Identify what changes fit this sound.
c) Make sure to have them implemented.
4) Some factors have a high variability rate and must be tested prior, ideally setting a tolerance threshold if possible (Eg. density and resonance of a particular piece of wood, resistance value of a pot, etc.). This is probably in part why a lot of people report Aristides guitars as being incredibly consistent from one guitar to the next.

PRS is a good example of the above. They identified variables that have an impact and proceeded with R&D over decades to make small incremental changes towards a specific sound. In turn they are quite consistently very resonant and pleasant sounding instruments. There's a few duds out there I'm sure, but they are few and far appart.

IMO this is what distinguishes a company like PRS from builders that just slap parts together without much thought or testing behind it.

TL;DR: know what you want, what brings you closer to it, and look for it. You might find a Jackson you like and and ESP you don't, or vice versa.

 

[oversteve]

old USA Jacksons use 250k tone pot pretty often vs 500k on ESP, if compared 250k at max 10 sounds like log 500k rolled down to 7-8 and that might be the case here why Jackson sounds more bassy and less defined

 

[/wrists]

trolling?

 

[chipchappy]

trolling?

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