Do you really need Carbon Fiber in a neck ?
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darren
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I wouldn't describe that neck as "stiff" at all. It's actually flexing quite a lot. But it's not breaking and is returning to its original shape because it's a good cut of wood. It's also laminated with a fretboard and has a truss rod in it.
Resilient, yes... stiff? No.
And no, you don't need carbon fibre neck reinforcements, but they do make necks more reliable, and they tend to reduce dead spots on the fretboard because they DO make the neck stiffer. They also help with reducing warranty claims for warped necks.
Resilient, yes... stiff? No.
And no, you don't need carbon fibre neck reinforcements, but they do make necks more reliable, and they tend to reduce dead spots on the fretboard because they DO make the neck stiffer. They also help with reducing warranty claims for warped necks.
MF_Kitten
Set up us the bomb
All wood necks will flex and shift over time, and with time you can get warping and stuff as well. laminated necks, reinforcements, and truss rods, all work against this very problem. A one-piece wood neck can be really good, but there's no real guarantee. It also takes more maintenance and care to make sure it stays good. The more you reinforce a neck, the more it will do this for you.
edit: I'm having a headless 8 string made which will have two KTS Titanium reinforcement rods in the neck. Should be interesting!
edit: I'm having a headless 8 string made which will have two KTS Titanium reinforcement rods in the neck. Should be interesting!
Deegatron
Well-Known Member
Another thing to note about this demonstration is that this neck is headless. most break's seem to happen around the scarf / headstock transition area.... this neck is heavily reinforced in that area...
that being said... yes a one piece or scarf jointed neck can be very strong.
that being said... yes a one piece or scarf jointed neck can be very strong.
MF_Kitten
Set up us the bomb
It has several properties that makes it well suited for this. Notice how Ibanez are using these now
Given To Fly
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I think everything could use a little carbon fiber! 
UnderTheSign
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You don't need carbon fibre, look at all the guitars of the past century. That said there are arguments both for and against neck reinforcements like CF, titanium (didn't Rick Toone make these for a while?), aliminum, whatever. I do think CF and other reinforcements have their use but they're a little overrated/hyped right now.
darren
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Another factor is that good quartersawn hardwood lumber is getting more scarce. The trees being harvested are smaller than in the past, and quartersawn or rift-sawn lumber produces less yield per log than plain-sawing. Flat-sawn/plain-sawn planks aren't as stable as quartersawn, because the grain lines are oriented parallel to the string plane, unlike quartersawn, where the grain is oriented perpendicular to the string plane.
Adding a couple of channels for CF or Ti rods is easy to do in a production process, without having to change to a multi-laminated neck blank.
Adding a couple of channels for CF or Ti rods is easy to do in a production process, without having to change to a multi-laminated neck blank.
HaMMerHeD
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It has several properties that makes it well suited for this. Notice how Ibanez are using these now
Yeah...it's expensive and it sounds cool.
MF_Kitten
Set up us the bomb
actually, the KTS rods didn't cost a lot AT ALL.
Keyvanizator
Member
I've homebuilt some extended range guitar and bass guitars and I had to work with badly dried woods and species that are supposedly not suitable for guitar contruction.
An example would be european white oak and beech wood for the neck.
I've successfully used 2 or even 4 carbon fiber rods to stiff those necks up and I've seen a noticeable change in the stiffness of the necks I build. The change is very obvious and I don't believe it is just because of wood humidity content.
Carbon fiber rods definitely make the neck stiffer. That is perfect if DIY people do not have access to proper wood, but it is also perfect to make your guitars last much longer, preventing warping and other unpleasant irregular movements.
Steel is another option I've implemented and I'm very happy about. It is heavier, but it works just as well. The weight it not an issue if: You plan the build correctly, wear a decent strap, lift like a man at the gym. (I like bragging about how heavy my guitars are).
Based on my experience, my custom RAN Crusher 8 string has 1 dual action truss rod and 4 carbon fiber rods. It was a first time for RAN having to put so many rods in a single neck, but I've been told they were happy with the result.
I'm not a rich person and I wouldn't want such an expensive guitar to last less than my life.
An example would be european white oak and beech wood for the neck.
I've successfully used 2 or even 4 carbon fiber rods to stiff those necks up and I've seen a noticeable change in the stiffness of the necks I build. The change is very obvious and I don't believe it is just because of wood humidity content.
Carbon fiber rods definitely make the neck stiffer. That is perfect if DIY people do not have access to proper wood, but it is also perfect to make your guitars last much longer, preventing warping and other unpleasant irregular movements.
Steel is another option I've implemented and I'm very happy about. It is heavier, but it works just as well. The weight it not an issue if: You plan the build correctly, wear a decent strap, lift like a man at the gym. (I like bragging about how heavy my guitars are).
Based on my experience, my custom RAN Crusher 8 string has 1 dual action truss rod and 4 carbon fiber rods. It was a first time for RAN having to put so many rods in a single neck, but I've been told they were happy with the result.
I'm not a rich person and I wouldn't want such an expensive guitar to last less than my life.
I used to put CF in my erg's but don't bother now and its made absolutely zero difference to the strength and also there has been no issues on stringing up.
Its all subjective of course and each to his own methods.
I obviously use multi-laminate and select strong woods.
Its all subjective of course and each to his own methods.
I obviously use multi-laminate and select strong woods.
The Reverend
GHETTO KING OF SWAG
Interesting discussion. As just an average player, I don't know much about the construction of guitars, so I'm glad to be learning some things.
What's the common consensus about three or more piece necks? I see them all the time in various customs and production builds. Do they offer more strength and stability to the neck, or is that more of a tone and aesthetics decision?
What's the common consensus about three or more piece necks? I see them all the time in various customs and production builds. Do they offer more strength and stability to the neck, or is that more of a tone and aesthetics decision?
Megaton_900
The Science
IMO its about stability and resistance to climate shifts.
Love hufscmid guitars too
Slightly off topic:
Ive heard it said that carbonfiber is not stronger than a good hardwood, so i though this would be a good place to post this too
If we model the guitar neck as a beam with a point load in the middle, the equation for its deflection is given by:
delta=(Load*EffectiveLength^3)/(48*E*I)
where delta = deflection
EffectiveLength = length between the supports
E = Young's Mod
I = moment of inertia
I is also given by the integral of density*positionvector^2 dr, so if we assume both a solid (fully 1peice neck including fretboard, no truss rod) of both maple and carbon fiber we get
delta = (Load*L^3)/(48*E*density*integral of (position vectors)^2)
As both necks have the same shape, the integral of the position vectors will be the same.
Infact, if we want to test both necks in exactly the same way; Load, L, sum of position vectors (and the constant 48) will all remain the same.
thus we can simplify the relation further to:
deflection = k/(density*E)
were k is a constant.
Now if we take some data values, say, from the video, and a few quick google searches.
deflection = 1cm - 0.01m (my rough estimate from viewing the video)
density of hard maple = 700 Kg/m^3 (ranges from 0.6 to 0.75)
E of hard maple = 1.83 x10^3 psi = 12.6 GPa
substituting gives k = 8.82x10^10
now, for carbon fiber:
density = 1780 Kg/m^3 (can vary)
E of c.f = 150GPa
so the deflection that we would get from the carbon fiber if this man jumped on it is 0.00033m, or 330 micro meters
That is 30x less deflection (and 2.5x the mass).
In fact, to get the same 1cm deflection you would need a point load of over 3 Tonnes!
Instead of a man, you could hang a sizable 4wd off it.
This does not mean carbon fiber is an ideal neck material by its self though. 2.5x the mass would be a heavy neck, and the dust it makes when being cut are noxious.
IMO it is a nice addition however, a bit like stainless steel frets.
*(happy to fix any mistakes if anyone spots one)
sorry for the derail
tldr; carbon fiber is fancy stuff.
Edit: spelling
Love hufscmid guitars too
Slightly off topic:
Ive heard it said that carbonfiber is not stronger than a good hardwood, so i though this would be a good place to post this too
If we model the guitar neck as a beam with a point load in the middle, the equation for its deflection is given by:
delta=(Load*EffectiveLength^3)/(48*E*I)
where delta = deflection
EffectiveLength = length between the supports
E = Young's Mod
I = moment of inertia
I is also given by the integral of density*positionvector^2 dr, so if we assume both a solid (fully 1peice neck including fretboard, no truss rod) of both maple and carbon fiber we get
delta = (Load*L^3)/(48*E*density*integral of (position vectors)^2)
As both necks have the same shape, the integral of the position vectors will be the same.
Infact, if we want to test both necks in exactly the same way; Load, L, sum of position vectors (and the constant 48) will all remain the same.
thus we can simplify the relation further to:
deflection = k/(density*E)
were k is a constant.
Now if we take some data values, say, from the video, and a few quick google searches.
deflection = 1cm - 0.01m (my rough estimate from viewing the video)
density of hard maple = 700 Kg/m^3 (ranges from 0.6 to 0.75)
E of hard maple = 1.83 x10^3 psi = 12.6 GPa
substituting gives k = 8.82x10^10
now, for carbon fiber:
density = 1780 Kg/m^3 (can vary)
E of c.f = 150GPa
so the deflection that we would get from the carbon fiber if this man jumped on it is 0.00033m, or 330 micro meters
That is 30x less deflection (and 2.5x the mass).
In fact, to get the same 1cm deflection you would need a point load of over 3 Tonnes!
Instead of a man, you could hang a sizable 4wd off it.
This does not mean carbon fiber is an ideal neck material by its self though. 2.5x the mass would be a heavy neck, and the dust it makes when being cut are noxious.
IMO it is a nice addition however, a bit like stainless steel frets.
*(happy to fix any mistakes if anyone spots one)
sorry for the derail
tldr; carbon fiber is fancy stuff.
Edit: spelling
Youne
Active Member
It depends of the section of the rod !(for a one piece neck) The rectangular section (width perpendicular to the string plan) is stiffer than the round section (which is omnidirectionnal).
In case of multilaminate neck, you don't really need carbon (especially in quartersawn wood). It stiff even if the woods are in false quartersawn.
In French there's a proverb: "Qui peut le plus, peut le moins." Translation: "Who can do the more, can do the less"... If the CF is not really much stiffer, it isn't bad to put some !
In case of multilaminate neck, you don't really need carbon (especially in quartersawn wood). It stiff even if the woods are in false quartersawn.
In French there's a proverb: "Qui peut le plus, peut le moins." Translation: "Who can do the more, can do the less"... If the CF is not really much stiffer, it isn't bad to put some !
DistinguishedPapyrus
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When I think about this topic I consider all the many old Les Pauls, Strats and such floating around out there that have been playing for decades that have only a one piece mahogany or maple neck and a one way truss rod. If these guitars stand up for so long without major issues, then carbon fiber is certainly proven to not be necessary in a build, even in 7-8 string necks. I personally think there is more than enough stability in a 5-7 piece laminate with a two way rod to hold up for the instruments lifetime, if maintained and not exposed to harsh climate/humidity.
The CF rods are more of a placebo. I wouldn't have a problem putting them in one of my own necks, but I wouldn't sweat it if they were not there.
The CF rods are more of a placebo. I wouldn't have a problem putting them in one of my own necks, but I wouldn't sweat it if they were not there.
Given To Fly
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Ironically, its my classical guitars that have the carbon fiber, not the electrics. Also, its not used in the necks but rather the bracing supporting the guitar tops.
