Ebony and other exotic woods...

[Stitch]

Hey y'all. Final specs go to the builder this week on my 8...

We're trying to figure out what to make the neck from. Having read that the Ibanez 8 has been pulled back from its original release date for what may be neck stability issues, I think we're going to go for a thru-neck made up of 5-7 splices of maple/ebony/maple/ebony/maple or maple/wenge/maple/ebony/maple/wenge/maple, which should provide necessary stiffness. Its gonna be a looker, for sure. Im going for Ebony as it is such a stiff wood, and it isnt my tools that are being used. It will have an ebony board too, so this should help.

The real issue, in my head, is that ebony has a history of being very badly felled and being a bit eco-conscious, i don't really want to think my guitar is contributing to the decline of the worlds forests...call me weird, but these things matter to me. Your talking to a guy who seperates his plastics according to type

Does anyone know how reliable dealers are for sourcing "ethical" timber, or can anyone point me in the direction of someone?

Another option would be to use a Rosewood fingerboard and graphite support strips in the neck, but those won't look quite as cool.

I'll probably post more questions as the week progresses as i start to worry about more things, but this'll do for now

 

[dpm]

Wenge is one of the least stable woods IMO, and not particularly stiff despite it's weight. Ebony, although stiff, can be unstable depending on how well it is dried, how it is cut, and what type of ebony it is.
If the RG8 really is delayed due to stability issues (which sounds doubtful to me) the cause is more likely to be poorly dried/cut wood than the actual species used. Rock Maple, when dried properly and quarter sawn, is one of the most stable woods around and very stiff for it's weight. It really is a fantstic wood for guitar necks.
I'm generally not a fan of using multiple species of wood in a neck. I don't feel it makes a neck more stable as different species have different expansion/contraction characteristics. They move at different rates due to temperature change and, more importantly, they absorb and release moisture at different rates.
My advice would be to use woods with a tight grain structure as they tend to be stiffer, and to ensure that they have been through a proper drying process. Make sure your luthier is using quarter sawn stock, and don't go for high figure.
Environmentally, you might be able to access some Smartwood certified stock - http://www.rainforest-alliance.org/programs/forestry/smartwood/
Graphite and carbon fiber can increase stiffness if used correctly. They are produced using some pretty scary chemicals so I wouldn't necessarily consider them as better from an environmental perspective.

 

[Durero]

The real issue, in my head, is that ebony has a history of being very badly felled and being a bit eco-conscious, i don't really want to think my guitar is contributing to the decline of the worlds forests...call me weird, but these things matter to me. Your talking to a guy who seperates his plastics according to type

Does anyone know how reliable dealers are for sourcing "ethical" timber, or can anyone point me in the direction of someone?

E-rep for you my friend! I think about this issue a great deal (and separate my plastics as well )
My prototype has a 6-piece maple/ebony/maple/maple/ebony/maple laminated neck which has been perfectly stable in a wide variety of weather & humidity conditions. But of course Dan's point about the quality of the wood & drying process is excellent, so a maple/ebony lamination doesn't guarantee a stable neck.

I'm also looking for any FSC certified wood sources, and I won't be using ebony again unless I can find one. Do you happen to know of any Dan?

 

[Daniel S]

iv have heard that purple heart is good for neck laminates

but im pretty shure a 2 double action truss rods or somthing should solve the problems of stability

 

[RGGR]

I have always been a sucker for a laminated neck. You simply can't beat the look of it.

 

[Apophis]

I have always been a sucker for a laminated neck. You simply can't beat the look of it.

I know what you are talking about
My 9 string below :

 

[jim777]

Purpleheart is extremely strong; one of the strongest woods in the world. I don't believe there are any ecological worries surrounding its use, as it is rarely used for a tone wood or for furniture. It used to be used for bridge making It will however turn brown after time if a clear finish isn't put on it.

 

[Stitch]

Purpleheart is another option... just wasn't sure about the "purple" part
The neck will have at least one dual-action truss rod, so that shouldnt be too much of an issue.
Ebony was chosen parly for stiffness and really for looks as well.
I'd like an ebony fretboard for it and probably either a spalted slab of beech or maple for the top. I was also thinking of a 2mm Ebony top, not for tone, but again for looks (Blackmachine style)

Obviously, these aren't my tools...

What is the difference between the neck I described and a laminate? thats what i was going for...

I mentioned Wenge for that "RG7321" look. Does anyone have any other suggestions for particularly dark woods that are relatively stable, since wenge isn't?

Oh and Durero...thanks.

 

[Durero]

Does anyone have any other suggestions for particularly dark woods that are relatively stable, since wenge isn't?

How about staining the purpleheart black?

Have you ever done that Jim?

Purpleheart is extremely strong; one of the strongest woods in the world. I don't believe there are any ecological worries surrounding its use, as it is rarely used for a tone wood or for furniture. It used to be used for bridge making It will however turn brown after time if a clear finish isn't put on it.

Great - thanks for the info Jim

 

[dpm]

Purpleheart is good. Stable, plentiful, stiff, cheap. It's a little difficult to work, it murders sandpaper and likes to break off along the grain.

 

[Durero]

Cool, I was hoping you'd chime in Dan.
Have you ever stained purpleheart, or heard of anyone else doing that?

 

[dpm]

Durero, I don't currently have any certified source. The wood industry here is disorganised and expensive so I'm mostly buying exotics from Larry Davis at Gallery Hardwoods. You could email him or post in his forum at Bassnutz

 

[RGGR]

You seem to be be all hung up on this "exotic wood" type thing.

You need to sprinkle that around like spices on a meal. Not create whole meal out of it. Then you're better off with a pepper stuck in your arse.

Simple laminated neck, one trussrod, and you're done. Going for looks, use contrasting woods like Wenge, etc. Worried about stability, glue in some carbon rods. You're trying to over engineer this.

For 8 stringer guitars you should look into bass necks. Some great bass necks are made from Wenge.

 

[ElRay]

I'd like an ebony fretboard for it and probably either a spalted slab of beech or maple for the top.

I'm not sure how it would work as part of the neck laminations, but there's always "Garolite" (that's a brand name) -- it's layers of paper, linen, canvas or fiberglass compressed and baked with phenolic resins. They are all quite stiff -- commonly used for router plates, tables, etc.. IIRC, the paper and linen based ones are black and even have noticeable "graining" on the cut sides. I've seen it used as fretboard material, but I have no idea how it would work as some of the laminations in the neck.

If you're looking for something different, you could go with the G-10. That has a green look similar to printed circuit boards. One side is typically glass smooth, and the other typically has a fiberglass like texture. It's moderately slick, hard (as in resistance to puncture), resistant to abrasion, but not a stiff as the "black" phenolic. don't know how that would work at all as a fretboard (I could see slotting it to be a problem), but it would definitely look unique as a top. It is green, which seems to be a plus to a lot of folks on this board.

Ray

 

[Stitch]

You seem to be be all hung up on this "exotic wood" type thing.

You need to sprinkle that around like spices on a meal. Not create whole meal out of it. Then you're better off with a pepper stuck in your arse.

Simple laminated neck, one trussrod, and you're done. Going for looks, use contrasting woods like Wenge, etc. Worried about stability, glue in some carbon rods. You're trying to over engineer this.

For 8 stringer guitars you should look into bass necks. Some great bass necks are made from Wenge.

No, i'm not. We are talking about using ethically obtained timber - i.e not ethnically obtained timber, timber cut from unmanaged sources or where it simply isn't appropriate.

This isn't totally about stability issues - this is about considering the environment. Maple, to my knowledge, is not as intensively farmed as some other woods and does not pose any particular problems to my mind. (Anyone who knows otherwise feel free to chip in and shatter my idealism ) and the mahogany has been obtained locally from a nearby woodland place thingy.
Carbon and graphite rods present a problem chemically - read the above posts...
And one truss rod, in my mind, simply doesn't offer enough control in case of flexing or deformation. Rickenbacker use dual trussrods in teir twelve strings, and while the tension may not be close to that, the sheer width of the neck says, to me at least, that two dual-action truss rods would offer additional control.
And, ultimately, this is my guitar. When you decide to shell out a custom 8-string, you build it however the hell you want.

Just my 0.02¢

 

[jim777]

How about staining the purpleheart black?

Have you ever done that Jim?


Great - thanks for the info Jim

Black! Ack! It is so beautiful, why would you stain it black?

These are purpleheart back plates:

I don't think they'd look as good if you made them black.

jim

 

[dpm]

You seem to be be all hung up on this "exotic wood" type thing.

You need to sprinkle that around like spices on a meal. Not create whole meal out of it. Then you're better off with a pepper stuck in your arse.

Simple laminated neck, one trussrod, and you're done. Going for looks, use contrasting woods like Wenge, etc. Worried about stability, glue in some carbon rods. You're trying to over engineer this.

For 8 stringer guitars you should look into bass necks. Some great bass necks are made from Wenge.

I like ass peppers

Actually, I like simplicity, and I'm bored with maple.
Regarding the engineering, I agree that longditudanal stiffness on an 8 string guitar is not so much of an issue. There's certainly not as much tension on the neck as a bass. However, the added width of the 8 string means that lateral stiffness and stability is an issue. What would be a slight twist in a 6 string neck would present as a much more severe twist if the same plank were used as an 8 string neck. This makes wood selection paramount, ie. moisture content, drying process, the way it's cut.
I've never seen nor heard a wenge neck I liked (and I see quite a lot of wenge necks in my job). It's rubbery (as in flexable) and dull sounding, and the pores are like crevasses. Yes, I'm biased against it. Hate it. Wouldn't want to date it. Other people like it, that's their thing.

I've heard of chemically treating purpleheart to bring out the purple (it's brown when freshly cut), and I've heard that using a UV resistant finish keeps it purple longer. It might take a stain well as it's open grained, but it might not because of the silica content (this is what kills your tools). Short answer - buggered if I know

Regarding phenolic, I looked into using it as fretboard material as a lot of carbon guitars use it. The sound is very dull. Not good at all, unfortunately. I think I read somewhere that the dust created when working it might be carcinogenic.

Incidentally, Gallery Hardwoods does an acrylic impregnation process which totally stabilises the wood. It still works like wood, but it's totally sealed from the elements, and dyes can be incorporated into the process. There are limitations in size and the species that can be processed. I believe Bee Basses made an instrument entirely out of stabilised wood with great success, and I've done a couple of fretboards with it myself.

 

[RGGR]

I've never seen nor heard a wenge neck I liked (and I see quite a lot of wenge necks in my job). It's rubbery (as in flexable) and dull sounding, and the pores are like crevasses. Yes, I'm biased against it. Hate it. Wouldn't want to date it. Other people like it, that's their thing.

I'm one of those people...I guess.....

And when worried about the environment why not use some McDonalds countertops?

And don't get me wrong I care about our tropical forrests too, but also realize that my one or two guitars won't ruin the ecosystem. 99% of deforestation is caused by creating farmland to grow products like soybeans and palm oil.....Those soybeans are mostly used as pigfood.....So if you really want to do something about deforestastion is become a muslim and stop eating pig.

 

[sparky51077]

Another wood to consider is walnut. It is what they use in the 7321 necks. I am pretty sure there are no ecological issues with walnut. It can be very dark if you find the right peace of wood.

 

[Dive-Baum]

I haven't heard great things about staining purpleheart black. I do know that there are ebony stains out there that people use to make their ebony fretboards more uniformly black. Personally I think that takes away from the woods natural beauty. My ebony fretboard is perfect and had no flaws though. If you are looking for exotic woods, check ebay. They have quite a few luthier quality cuts of just about any type of wood you would want to build a guitar out of. Personally, I think youre nuts if you stain purpleheart though...way too unique of a wood to make it look like something else..just schalac the hell out of it.