Finding your go-to IRs, comparison to audio from mic'd cabs, discussion

[Stiman]

I know the topic of IRs vs real cabs gets brought up often, but I promise this is different. I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should be micing their cabs, or that IRs are better. All I want to discuss is the observations I've made and to solicit some thought and ideas from this community on how to get the most out of IRs and how did you achieve your go-to IRs.


tl;dr:
- real cabs and mics sound good and can be improved to sound amazing
- IRs often sound ok or bad, and can be made to sound amazing too but the window is small and harder to achieve

-----------------------------------

Ok, so as I have been trying to narrow in on a handful of go-to IRs, I've made some observations. I'm mostly working with the Helix built-in cabs and a handful of different IR packs from York Audio and Ownhammer.

I find that the mics and cabs in Helix, and the various individual mic IRs all sound quite drastically different to each other, and IMO overly so. The r121 sounds way too bassy, the SM57 sounds way too harsh, etc... But when I listen to real audio samples of mics, they all sound pretty damn good, and only slightly different from each other, like a slightly different flavour.

Take these samples here for example: https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/best-guitar-amp-mics/

Those all sound pretty good and usable. You can see how combining a few together would sound just right.

But my experience with IRs (and cabs/mics in Helix which, are just IRs too), they all have a large window where they sound pretty meh or bad, and a tiny window where you can make them sound good. If you can even find the window at all.

Anyway, if I continue I'll be rambling. What are your thoughts? Any tips on working with IRs to get your go-to IRs?

Things I'm thinking of trying:
- maybe I need to be more deliberate about using high and low cuts (I never use them, but maybe I should)?
- finding my favourite mic and cab (in Helix) and working to learn it as best as I can.
- Add another mic after the initial work to balance out any missing frequencies or to better shape the tone.

 

[budda]

Less is more - 2 ir’s to an amp tops. Its not like running 4x 412 cabs its like running 4x mics (or more) if that makes sense.

Im pretty set and forget. Find a combo you like, use it for everything and learn it inside and out yeah.

If you cant find an IR you really like, the amp is probably what you should change .

I ran cuts because i saw it in a leon todd video when i moved to modelling, but at some point during axefx updates I stopped as it didnt need it.

 

[Stiman]

Less is more - 2 ir’s to an amp tops. Its not like running 4x 412 cabs its like running 4x mics (or more) if that makes sense.

Yeah, I'm definitely trying to find one, and maybe suplementent it with a little bit of a second to fill in any holes. and make the composite of that combination as a go-to IR.

Not trying to build a composite of 4+ different IRs from different speakers/cabs etc...

It also dawned on me that I may need to use a reference track, because often after an hour of playing with IRs, everything starts sounding bad and I need to step away.

 

[crushingpetal]

I'm a big a supporter of the idea that there's no right / wrong answer, just do what works for you, but I've found IRs to be just as good as micing a cab. So, I personally disagree with your TLDR summary (but it ain't a big deal).

Indeed: the real proof is a direct comparison in a mix.

But also: what are you trying to do? Jam? Demo? Finished mix?

 

[SalsaWood]

For recording it doesn't matter given you do either properly. Not even sure it matters otherwise for a few years now.

I'm 100% in camp mic'd IRL cabs and tube amps personally. I still think it's easier to do out of the box than dick around with software and solid state stuff. Seems like 99% of the IRs I have sound like wretched asshole for high gain, but if you know how to clean them up they can be worth it. Less is more when it comes to signal processing I believe, other than that I have no specific tips. Keep at it until it sounds good.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

I know the topic of IRs vs real cabs gets brought up often, but I promise this is different. I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should be micing their cabs, or that IRs are better. All I want to discuss is the observations I've made and to solicit some thought and ideas from this community on how to get the most out of IRs and how did you achieve your go-to IRs.


tl;dr:
- real cabs and mics sound good and can be improved to sound amazing
- IRs often sound ok or bad, and can be made to sound amazing too but the window is small and harder to achieve

-----------------------------------

Ok, so as I have been trying to narrow in on a handful of go-to IRs, I've made some observations. I'm mostly working with the Helix built-in cabs and a handful of different IR packs from York Audio and Ownhammer.

I find that the mics and cabs in Helix, and the various individual mic IRs all sound quite drastically different to each other, and IMO overly so. The r121 sounds way too bassy, the SM57 sounds way too harsh, etc... But when I listen to real audio samples of mics, they all sound pretty damn good, and only slightly different from each other, like a slightly different flavour.

Take these samples here for example: https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/best-guitar-amp-mics/

Those all sound pretty good and usable. You can see how combining a few together would sound just right.

But my experience with IRs (and cabs/mics in Helix which, are just IRs too), they all have a large window where they sound pretty meh or bad, and a tiny window where you can make them sound good. If you can even find the window at all.

Anyway, if I continue I'll be rambling. What are your thoughts? Any tips on working with IRs to get your go-to IRs?

Things I'm thinking of trying:
- maybe I need to be more deliberate about using high and low cuts (I never use them, but maybe I should)?
- finding my favourite mic and cab (in Helix) and working to learn it as best as I can.
- Add another mic after the initial work to balance out any missing frequencies or to better shape the tone.

IRs have a huge level of variation among them due to the lack of standardization. Not all IRs are created equally. Some are shit and some are great. It's a massive rabbit hole and requires a lot of time to experiment with different combos if you want something outside of a typical V30 IR.

I personally like Ownhammer and York Audio's IRs the most out of anything I've tried, though there is some meh stuff in their catalogues as well. YMMV


I generally try to find speakers I prefer (g12k100s/v30s) and then seeking out IRs that do a good job showcasing them (Ownhammer's Diezel 4x12 IRs). Certain mic choices and positions change the sound and feel of an IR significantly, so I try to stick with mics I'm pretty familiar with (sm57 and beyerdynamic m160 or shure sm7) until I get a good feel for the IR pack.
Then I start to mess around more with differing combinations.


There are many different ways to blend mics and achieve similar sounds, but it does require time and a willingness to experiment. Over time you get a feel for each mic's general eq, which makes it easier to blend them. I've found a lot of R121 IRs to be very boomy, but they do help add a nice low end chunk to a cone centered sm57.
You can also base your blends off of typical studio blends e.g sm57 with r121, dual sm57, dual ribbon setups, etc.
Playing with stuff like phase cancellation also helps blend stuff too.
I landed on the sm57 and beyerdynamic m160 combo because they compliment each other pretty well in most circumstances.
I try to keep the ribbon mic closer to the cone and the sm57 slightly further away to remove the harsher hiss of the sm57.

High and low passing does help with getting the IRs mix ready, or just for cleaning up excess low end/high end . I use STL's NADir plugin because it lets me do high/low pass right then . There are other IR loaders like Audio Assault's IR loader that do similar stuff.

 

[budda]

I for one cant do real or virtual mic placement and make it sound better than a provided IR, so I dont. I know lots of users were excited for fractal audio’s dynacabs but im not an engineer so it didnt help me. Glad it exists.

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

To me when mixing a song, it's a matter of finding an IR that's bright enough but doesn't sound bad. Because lots of them sound good on their own but are too dark to cut through the mix with all the other instruments.
I usually don't mix two IRs, because it's harder to get a good result like that. A lot of these packs have pre-mixed IRs of two mics, and that's what I will use.
Then there's another factor, each IR maker has their own sound. Some are flatter with tons of choices, and some are already very processed with less choices but with more character in the sound.

There's also lots of different advice on how to work with guitar tones after recording. Some will tell you to get the tone 100% at the source and do very minimal processing after. Or wide boosts and narrow cuts. Or that digital recorded guitars don't take processing as well as analog recorded guitars. On the other hand some course I've seen a guy boost the distorted guitars by a lot high in the frequency range, but that was with analog recorded guitars with a microphone.
In the end you have to trust your ears and do what you gotta do.

I've been using IRs for almost 10 years now, and had a chance to record with a mic'd cab for like a month. From that limited experience I was just very surprised how fast I got a tone that was usable. As opposed to tweaking to get the amp sim EQ right, picking the IR and all that. But that might not the same experience for everyone.
In the end that's what I prefer. Having one thing that's very good at what it does, find it's sweet spot and stick to that. Instead of having 500 "okay" options.

 

[SalsaWood]

I for one cant do real or virtual mic placement and make it sound better than a provided IR, so I dont. I know lots of users were excited for fractal audio’s dynacabs but im not an engineer so it didnt help me. Glad it exists.

Two Notes software has this feature. Has been out for a while now.

 

[budda]

Two Notes software has this feature. Has been out for a while now.

a few companies did it, then fractal did it the way they do things.

 

[Stiman]

But also: what are you trying to do? Jam? Demo? Finished mix?

Mostly to build great patches to jam and write with. I'll use them to record as well, but during mixing I'll definitely dive in and find the perfect IRs for the mix.

Having one thing that's very good at what it does, find it's sweet spot and stick to that. Instead of having 500 "okay" options.

I feel this.

other than that I have no specific tips. Keep at it until it sounds good.

Yeah, this is what I'm realizing, I just need to "git gud"

IRs have a huge level of variation among them due to the lack of standardization. Not all IRs are created equally. Some are shit and some are great. It's a massive rabbit hole and requires a lot of time to experiment with different combos if you want something outside of a typical V30 IR.

I personally like Ownhammer and York Audio's IRs the most out of anything I've tried, though there is some meh stuff in their catalogues as well. YMMV


I generally try to find speakers I prefer (g12k100s/v30s) and then seeking out IRs that do a good job showcasing them (Ownhammer's Diezel 4x12 IRs). Certain mic choices and positions change the sound and feel of an IR significantly, so I try to stick with mics I'm pretty familiar with (sm57 and beyerdynamic m160 or shure sm7) until I get a good feel for the IR pack.
Then I start to mess around more with differing combinations.


There are many different ways to blend mics and achieve similar sounds, but it does require time and a willingness to experiment. Over time you get a feel for each mic's general eq, which makes it easier to blend them. I've found a lot of R121 IRs to be very boomy, but they do help add a nice low end chunk to a cone centered sm57.
You can also base your blends off of typical studio blends e.g sm57 with r121, dual sm57, dual ribbon setups, etc.
Playing with stuff like phase cancellation also helps blend stuff too.
I landed on the sm57 and beyerdynamic m160 combo because they compliment each other pretty well in most circumstances.
I try to keep the ribbon mic closer to the cone and the sm57 slightly further away to remove the harsher hiss of the sm57.

High and low passing does help with getting the IRs mix ready, or just for cleaning up excess low end/high end . I use STL's NADir plugin because it lets me do high/low pass right then . There are other IR loaders like Audio Assault's IR loader that do similar stuff.

Great stuff. I guess I just need to keep working at it and make my own discoveries through experimenting.

 

[budda]

When you find the one you like, thats it stop looking. Most people dont roll speakers or cabs irl, why try 500 irs? Try 15-20 tops, one probably works.

 

[Drew]

I think the Ownhammer Mesa cabs are the ones I use while demoing. I like them because they sound decent, and a VST and IR means I can plug my guitar into the DI in of my Apogee and chip away at an idea over a couple days or a week or two, and maybe punch in a single note in the melody and have it come out seamlessly.

I still track in earnest with real mics though. Partly becase I've just got a killer signal chain, with a couple really nice mics, some killer mic pres, and really good conversion. But it also gives you a TON of control that you don't get with an IR - you'll usually have a nunch of impulses captured in different positons and angles and whatnot in a pack, but there's an infinite amount of variation in between all of those positions, and you can fine-tune in ways you can't with a pack of 12 or 24 IRs.

You can also drive yourself crazy doing this, haha.

 

[Stiman]

Micing a real amp sounds like a good idea on paper, but I know it would kill me. I work too slowly to be able to maintain the setup over time. It wouldn't work for me.

Having recently watched a video of Petrucci's mic setup, I've turned my attention away from the SM57+121 setup and started looking at condenser mics as a primary with a SM7B sprinkled in for higher definition and it feels like I'm onto something.

 

[PuckishGuitar]

I tend to use two single mic IRs and mix them myself for when I’m serious on tone and mixing, to try to complement each other and the other instruments. I like to have some idea of how the mic selection, placement, and speaker selection work together in these cases, it’s the engineer part of my brain that has to know how things work in detail. But when just playing by myself for practice or fun I like to use premixed IRs for simplicity, just run through a pack until it’s what I like that day and rock on. If I end up really liking a mix IR then I’ll try to back calculate it to the single mics for my own use later.

 

[Drew]

Micing a real amp sounds like a good idea on paper, but I know it would kill me. I work too slowly to be able to maintain the setup over time. It wouldn't work for me.

Having recently watched a video of Petrucci's mic setup, I've turned my attention away from the SM57+121 setup and started looking at condenser mics as a primary with a SM7B sprinkled in for higher definition and it feels like I'm onto something.

My amp sits in a corner with two mics always in position on it. There's a lot of analysis paralysis in finding the positions I want, but once they're sorted out they pretty much stay put unless I want to change things up.

The flip side is the huge drop in analysis paralysis that comes from printing amp tones to disc, and not being able to go back and make infinite EQ and gain (and even mic) tweaks.

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

My amp sits in a corner with two mics always in position on it. There's a lot of analysis paralysis in finding the positions I want, but once they're sorted out they pretty much stay put unless I want to change things up.

The flip side is the huge drop in analysis paralysis that comes from printing amp tones to disc, and not being able to go back and make infinite EQ and gain (and even mic) tweaks.

Unless you also record DI alongside the amp signal. Then you can torture yourself by reamping the guitars 20 times trying to find the best sound

 

[Stiman]

The flip side is the huge drop in analysis paralysis that comes from printing amp tones to disc, and not being able to go back and make infinite EQ and gain (and even mic) tweaks.

I hear that, totally. That's why my preferred method is directly recording my HX Stomp.

 

[Drew]

Unless you also record DI alongside the amp signal. Then you can torture yourself by reamping the guitars 20 times trying to find the best sound

I do not want to put myself through that.

 

[cthsqd]

DI recording is gold! After few years of recording processed singnal of the helix I got the "Native" vst and switched to DI, and really it opened a new world of fun with the mix. Being able to switch amps and IRs as you like in real time really helps to see how these things actually work in the mix.
As for IRs, yes, they're often difficult to tweak, but sometimes it's the wrong way we're looking into.
I tried OwnHammer's, they're good, but in the end I found Orta Studio's Apocalypse more suitable. And some from Ola Englund's free ones.