Flutter Physics

[tpl2000]

Greetings!

I have a question or two regarding fluttering. I know the process, and the action thereof, but what I don't know is what's required to get a longer flutter.

I'm using a PRS tremolo, and have it set basically to stock height. I'm using Elixir 11-49 gauge strings, in D standard. I'm opposing them with 3 springs, on the other side of the tremolo.

To get a better flutter, should I be using more or less springs? Should I be using a particular kind of spring, for the sake of individual spring's resistance/lack thereof?

 

[tedtan]

Experiment, but you'll probably find that fewer springs flutter better than more strings and that different springs will have differing levels of resistance at different parts of their travel.

So I would say drop down to two springs first and then, if you really want to dial it in, try 20 or so different springs and pick the best two of the bunch. But that's probably overkill for most people.

 

[xwmucradiox]

You're up against a few obstacles with a PRS. The trem is a 6-screw design and it isn't recessed. So you have more contact points and less room to travel. That means more friction and friction is the worst thing when you want flutter. Also, if you use heavy gauge strings there is more mass and tension in the system which offset the mass of the trem block moving back and forth. A floyd with 9s will flutter for days, but a strat trem with 12s wont really flutter very much at all.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

The weight behind the saddles can add to it.
For example, when I worked at Warmoth, we had several shop guitars built so we could try things out, prototypes & such. All of these would get various hardware appointments.

I found that the Schaller Floyds didn't flutter as long as the ORF's, and traditional ones like the Wilky's & American Standard ones do so even less. I'd go home, and my Low Pro 7 flutters for days.

In comparing all of these, my Low Pro 7 has the most mass behind the saddles heading away from the neck, the Floyd next, then the Schaller, then the traditional ones.

In all of these setups, a 3 spring setup is used.

With my Gotoh Floyd on my TFS6, I started out with 2 springs, and had flutter for days. When I went to 3, and now 4 springs, it's decreased significantly.

The King of Flutters is Brad Gillis from Night Ranger. He has a no fine tuner version of an OFR and he only uses 2 springs.

For my taste, I was willing to sacrifice the flutter to have greater tuning stability when doing double stop bends. This worked out fine for me since I don't really consider fluttering to be a staple in my style, but in the case of Brad Gillis it was one of the defining characteristics of his style.

So, with all that being said, you need to determine what your stylistic priorities are, and service them in order.

 

[decreebass]

We had a discussion about this a while back: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/beginners-faq/273923-one-does-not-simply-flutter.html

Basically, we landed at "no one knows."

I've tried more springs, less springs, smaller strings, thicker strings... If you keep the same gauge strings and change springs, it won't matter since either way you're balancing the tension... Even the customer service at EBMM was unable to provide a definite solution.

One thing to note: don't try to flutter on your EBMM Albert Lee; you'll hear a sickening thud as it slams back against the body (well, unless you have it set up to 'float')

Who knows? Maybe this thread will bring new ideas to the table, but it seems that the only thing for sure is that 6-strings flutter better than 7s.

 

[tpl2000]

Heh, my PRS trem slams the body as well if you go too far, bringing the arm down on the string side of things. If you point it towards the straplock on the bottom though, much less... Noisy.

Would it be beneficial to bring in a physicist?

 

[Stemp Fester]

PRS trem + 11's really isn't the best combination for flutter. I have 10's on my Custom 24 and can get a little bit of flutter out of it but really I think it just isn't what that kind of trem is meant for...

My JPXI on the other hand can go wild with flutter if you want it to - it's a very responsive guitar. Don't even need to touch the bar - just need to dig into the string with your picking action.

An Ibanez with an Edge Zero trem (with the ZPS bar removed!) will flutter madly too.

I would add though that the postioning of the bar makes a ton of difference. Perpendicular to the trem will result in less flutter while having it run inline with the strings effectively results in more mass behind the trem and more flutter.

 

[tpl2000]

PRS trem + 11's really isn't the best combination for flutter. I have 10's on my Custom 24 and can get a little bit of flutter out of it but really I think it just isn't what that kind of trem is meant for...

My JPXI on the other hand can go wild with flutter if you want it to - it's a very responsive guitar. Don't even need to touch the bar - just need to dig into the string with your picking action.

An Ibanez with an Edge Zero trem (with the ZPS bar removed!) will flutter madly too.

I would add though that the postioning of the bar makes a ton of difference. Perpendicular to the trem will result in less flutter while having it run inline with the strings effectively results in more mass behind the trem and more flutter.

As I recall, there's at least one video on YT where Emil Werstler demonstrates rather well, the kind of flutter he can get with a PRS trem. It may not be the god of all fluttering, but he gets a pretty decent response out of it. (Of course, he's also using a USA-PRS tremolo, rather than the Korean kind. My best guess says the different materials for the blocks means he gets better flutter.)

And on the topic of string gauge, I use 11's because I am in D standard tuning. They actually use a bit less tension than 10's in E standard tuning.

 

[Matthew]

I have a 2001 RG7420 that flutters better than any other guitar I've played. I use 4 springs and a set of 9-64 LaBellas in drop A. My guess is that "flutterability" is an individual bridge-by-bridge thing.

 

[xwmucradiox]

Fluttering often depends on the arm being stable and not moving when you hit it. Thats why an OFR will often flutter better than a trem where the arm swings around all the time. If the arm moves at all when you hit it you're losing energy and thus not getting effective fluttering.

 

[tpl2000]

Fluttering often depends on the arm being stable and not moving when you hit it. Thats why an OFR will often flutter better than a trem where the arm swings around all the time. If the arm moves at all when you hit it you're losing energy and thus not getting effective fluttering.

True enough--thankfully, you can tighten PRS trem arms. Mine is currently at the point where you have to want to change the position it's in to move it.

 

[Solodini]

It seems to me, as some others implied, the ratio of trem mass:tension in springs and strings is important. The effect is basically the trem going back and forth on its own like a pendulum. If the springs/strings are too strong then it'll just be pulled back to a stable resting point, but if they can't stop the momentum of the block/trem quickly then it'll swing past the resting point before the springs reach their limit and pull back, kicking off momentum in the other direction. Lighter strings and fewer springs is often effective but a heavier block on your trem should be able to contribute to the ratio.

Of course friction, as mentioned, would inhibit movement, too.

 

[tpl2000]

Apparently, according to the parts man at the PRS site in MD, the blocks made for the SE tremolos are made of steel, and the USSA blocks are brass (for the vintage type tone, I assume?).

He also said that it was fairly likely that any measurements or sizes of blocks or parts would most likely be proprietary, as is Mr. Paul's tendency.

 

[bluffalo]

something to think about - the trem springs probably aren't linear in their springiness. three springs in a v or three springs straight, even with the same equal tension (ie, strings are in tune) are probably not going to react the same with an extra say 10% tension, the one's in the v might provide a higher resistance as they are already stretched further.... if that makes sense.

that's not tested though, just a thought as to why it is seemingly random and hard to reproduce. spring age, configuration, length, material..... everything surely must have an impact of some sort, how ever minute or not.