Gain structure?

[slayerrulesyo]

Dimarzio Blaze 7 -> Maxon OD-808 -> Boss GT-10 (for EQ) -> Mesa Triple Rectifier -> Mesa 4x12

In my opinion, the modern mode has an incredible amount of gain. I set it at around 3 or 4 (out of 10, not o'clock) maximum, using my picking technique (I pick very hard) and the overdrive+eq to tighten up the sound and have a nice thump to it. the trick to a clearer sound is turning the gain down, otherwise it gets crunchy and shrill. I also back off the treble to get rid of the harsher tones as well as presence at 1 (out of 10, if that)

 

[wlfers]

emg 707 full volume > Engl 570 pre gain @ 9:00 o'clock > VHT 2/90/2.

The 570 really really needs no boost, for rhythms it is just ridiculously good sounding. For an extra bit of gain depth I have the second lead channel to a little under 11 o'clock (as opposed to 9). The 570 has a dry "boosted feel" territory on the lower gain settings, but has the ability to saturate intensely (much more than ever needed) as you push the gain higher and higher.

Another cool feature is the "modern/classic" switch. On classic the preamp runs a little harder, feels a bit more dynamic and according to Engl "vintage". The highs are more relaxed and mids a bit more present, also the apparent gain dramatically decreases. Flicking the classic switch on and bumping up the gain accordingly gives it a very interesting sound with a highly controlled/tight low end but some spring in the mids.

 

[stevo1]

I run Emg 81's (x's and reg's) as I think they work best for me for that mega chunk. For my amp, I usually use my bugera 333 half the time, and my XXX the other half. I have both set pretty equally on the channels. On the Bugera's lead channel, I Run The eq all @ six with the gain @ 3-4. I run the crunch channel with the treble at 5, mids at 7, bass at 6, gain on 7 for leads. I run the XXX similiar, except I run the treble a little lower, because it's a little brighter. I run a O'd To get the gain just to where I need it.

 

[Hollowway]

I don't know enough about exactly how the components of a signal chain work, but I do not like medium to low gain pups. I find that compensating with the preamp gain has a different character than using a medium high output pickup. (for high gain applications, anyway). Ask understand it, a TS style boost is doing more EQ than hitting the preamp stage harder, so a medium or low output pup + TS <> high output pup without TS. And a clean boost that does not have an EQ effect (like the way I understand the Fryette Boostassio is supposed to work) would essentially function the same as a higher output pup.

The other thing is a lot of people talk about power amp clipping, but the techs seem to say that we worry about power amp clipping occurring and way lower volumes than it really would. So a 50 or 100 Watt amp needs to get pretty damn loud to get some power amp distortion. A lot of what people attribute to power amp clipping is not the power amp distorting, but more the way it voices the distortion from the preamp. In other words, preamp distortion through EL34s sound different than preamp distortion through 6L6 or KT88s, and we assume the sound difference is due to the EL34s clipping but it's not. The real difference doesn't show up until you get to stage volumes.
Now, keep in mind I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about.

EDIT: just so we're all on the same page, what do you guys consider low, medium and high output pups?

 

[Floppystrings]

5150 gain at 10 o'clock

TS9 set to drive: all the way down, tone: 2 o'clock, and level Maxed.

Basically, it sounds like a 5150 with the gain on 6, but it's on 4 instead with a tube screamer pushing for that extra gain. Tighter and clear, and even the bass is tighter, less muddddd.

 

[vanhendrix]

Interesting thread, I like it.

My main setup goes like this:

-Mid output pickups: PRS 57/08s in my McCarty, or PRS Modern Eagle in my fav Soloist

-Boost: I bought a maxon od808 to replace my mxr GT-OD as my boost, but actually didn't end up using it that way at all. I loved the OD sound of the maxon so much that it took over the duties of dirtying up my clean channel. I still have the mxr for a boost though, I really dig its specific eq emphasis. I use pretty much the traditional boosting settings, with maybe a touch less output

-Mid-gain sound on my head: I run an engl powerball, but I have the gain at about 9:30, so it's way down. I actually have it that way because I built this setup around my channel 3 tone (unboosted, no effects). It's not very metal, but that's my absolute favourite sound out of this head, but it needs the right guitar with the right pickups to make it sing. Then the boost was brought in later so that I could still have a metal sound on my 4th channel without changing the knobs.

 

[Harry]

Do you guys find in general slamming the power amp is a bad idea if you're going that kind of modern death metal tone a la Decapitated?

I know that's one of the reasons people find triple rectifiers sound tighter and a little more hard hitting than the duals for modern metal.

Obviously you want to hit them a little with rectifiers just to get rid of that fizz they have inherently at lower volumes.

You would be correct yes. Too much power amp saturation will cause the amp to compress even more and it definitely starts to sound looser and muddier.
You also need to factor in speaker saturation.
It's a very essential part of the guitar tone, that speaker movement, but too much and it results in the speakers seriously distorting.
Low end gets muddy, mids become honky and the upper mids/treble can sound harsh as hell.
Ideally you want the master volume to be set just before that starts happening so you can get the speaker movement without the excess distortion.

 

[Greatoliver]

I'm running a TS-7 (resistor swap) into my 6505+ combo. I've got the usual max level, no gain, 12oclock tone and I love the effect it has. I only run my gain on 2 (9oclock) as it cuts down the fizz a lot, but it also gives a nice chunky tone, with a lot of clarity. Without the TS it really isn't enough gain - the neck pickup is verging on a blues tone haha; when it's on, it adds the gain (a bit) and really brings out the attack.

I use a CL/LF set, so I think they are kind of medium-high output. I used to use BKP Warpigs, so I like to think I've dropped the output a bit. I don't like to use too high output pickups, as it tends to reduce their versatility a bit, but pushing the preamp section is something I like from a pickup.

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

Medium output pups > eq (used as a boost) > dirt pedal > amp

 

[RGnez_owns]

Usually use EMG actives in an RG going straight into a TS-9 Tubescreamer with the tone 3/4 and volume maxed so it hits the preamp on the 5150 with a little more gain. Gain on the amp is usually around 1 or 2 o'clock, low is maxed, mids around 12 o'clock and high around 2 or 3. Resonance and presence maxed, maybe a bit off on the presence. And run an ns-2 through the loop with a Boss EQ to boost a little bit more and colour the mids and tighten the low end up a bit!

 

[book_of_lies777]

I mentioned pickups in my earlier reply, but I realize I didn't list any kind of settings...
here's my GSP1101 rack preamp/processor Dual Rectifier tone -

*********************************

amp model - '01 Dual Rect
cab - Vintage 4x12 (V30s)
gain - 70
bass - 6.8
middle - 4.3
treble - 6.4
amp level - 75

Distortion -
Screamer (Ibanez TS9)
drive - 40
tone - 70
level - 75

Noise Gate -
threshold - 40
attack - 0
release - 0
attenuation - 99

Reverb -
Lexicon Hall
predelay - 0
decay - 40
liveliness - 40
level - 17
left/right wet level - 99

Chorus (optional - adds 'girth' or 'breath') -
position - post amp
speed - 20
depth - 70
waveform - Sine
level - 22
left/right wet level - 99

**********************************

 

[dr_kotasz]

Just curious, how are most of you guys structuring your distortion? Do you prefer to get a chunk of it out of super hot pups or mostly from your pre-amp? Do you like to use a boost to get you get a touch more saturation? Etc...

It would be cool if you said what your rig is at the moment too and include guitar used.

I prefer to get the distortion from the preamp/poweramp section. I don't like super hot pickups, because the amps of nowadays has enough gain for everything.

I clean sounds i like the sound of the Laney Sound head. It's THE CLEAN sound. The Roland JC-120 also very good IMO.

In case of hi-gain, i like the middle focused distortion-structure. For example the Tech21 PSA1 can do this kind of distortion with the "punch" knob at 5 o'clock, and "buzz" and "crunch" knob is where it sound good (usually under halfway).

 

[Hollowway]

Just for kicks, does someone want to list a some popular pickups and whether they consider them high medium or low output? I see a lot of people saying they like medium output pickups but then listing pickups I consider high output.

 

[troyguitar]

Medium output pickups (Duncan 59, BKP Black Dog, PAF Pro depending on the guitar) -> Mark IIC+

No pedals and it's a 100 watt tube amp so I'm at pretty much 100% preamp distortion unless I play an outdoor festival un-mic'ed or something

 

[TemjinStrife]

Just for kicks, does someone want to list a some popular pickups and whether they consider them high medium or low output? I see a lot of people saying they like medium output pickups but then listing pickups I consider high output.

Low Output:
-Duncan Pearly Gates
-Duncan Alnico II Pro
-Gibson Burstbucker
-Duncan Jazz
-BKP Mule/Stormy Monday

Medium output:
-Duncan '59
-Dimarzio AT-1
-Gibson Burstbucker Pro
-EMG 60
-Dimarzio Breed
-Duncan Custom/Custom Custom/Custom 5
-BKP VHII/Emerald

Hot:
-Duncan JB
-Duncan Blackouts
-BKP Aftermath/Warpig/Holy Diver/Rebel Yell
-Dimarzio Evo
-EMG 81/85
-Suhr Doug Aldrich
-Tom Anderson HN3/HN3+

 

[Greatoliver]

I agree with the above. You do get a bit of variance in the hot range tho - people say that even the BKP WP is only really a mid-way hot pickup, even tho BKP plug it as being a very high ouput pup - I think the X2N-7 is hotter than a WP.

 

[goatLuke]

I have always preferred emg 81's and an eq.

i recieved a lot of help on the forum over the last month or so shaping my tone to cut in a band mix better so thanks and here's where im at.



emg 81's into and isp decimator pro rack g into a 6505+

the 6505 is set at pre 6.5, low 6, mid 6, high 7, resonance and presence at 7 ish, with a dbx 31 band eq in the fx loop that is boosting all signals slightly with a little less in the low mid range(if that makes sense) then into the other side of the pro rack.

I have tried a lot of times to boost the guitar signal with a ts9 that I keep around cause everyone says its a must but with the emg's into the 6505 and a eq i dont really hear any benefit.

 

[Hollowway]

Low Output:
-Duncan Pearly Gates
-Duncan Alnico II Pro
-Gibson Burstbucker
-Duncan Jazz
-BKP Mule/Stormy Monday

Medium output:
-Duncan '59
-Dimarzio AT-1
-Gibson Burstbucker Pro
-EMG 60
-Dimarzio Breed
-Duncan Custom/Custom Custom/Custom 5
-BKP VHII/Emerald

Hot:
-Duncan JB
-Duncan Blackouts
-BKP Aftermath/Warpig/Holy Diver/Rebel Yell
-Dimarzio Evo
-EMG 81/85
-Suhr Doug Aldrich
-Tom Anderson HN3/HN3+

Yeah, see that's what I mean. I only own one guitar that doesn't have what is considered a hot pickup. But I think a lot of people on here are thinking that a JB or RY or HD is medium output. I hear a SIGNIFICANT difference in my medium output pup with the gain turned up vs a hot pup. I personally like the sound of a hot pickup, because (and I don't know if I even know what I'm talking about) I like the sound of hitting the preamp tubes harder rather than just turning up the gain on them.