Game of Thrones

[bpprox22]

Saying we don't have proof here is kind of like saying I don't have proof that my parents are actually my parents because I don't remember being born.

What is your proof that your parents are actually your parents?

 

[vividox]

What is your proof that your parents are actually your parents?

You're only serving my point here.

If we start questioning that, we start questioning everything. How do we know Eddard Stark was real? How do we know Lady is really dead? How do we know Essos isn't a drug induced stupor that everyone slips off to when they get a few miles from Westeros where cognitive amalgamations result in the appearance of an organized society?

Some questions just aren't very meaningful.

R+L=J to any reasonable level of certainty.

 

[bpprox22]

You're only serving my point here.

If we start questioning that, we start questioning everything. How do we know Eddard Stark was real? How do we know Lady is really dead? How do we know Essos isn't a drug induced stupor that everyone slips off to when they get a few miles from Westeros where cognitive amalgamations result in the appearance of an organized society?

Some questions just aren't very meaningful.

R+L=J to any reasonable level of certainty.

I am only playing devil's advocate here.

I agree that R + L = J (we don't really have any reason to think otherwise) although, @MFB is correct. It is only heavily implied but never confirmed. Many people are of the same opinion about who Jon's parents are, but having validation within the show itself is what people are looking for -- not strong implications. And I think that is why people like to discuss the possibilities major plot twists.

Again, I agree with you but I see why others are skeptical to jump to the conclusion.

 

[vividox]

I am only playing devil's advocate here.

I agree that R + L = J (we don't really have any reason to think otherwise) although, @MFB is correct. It is only heavily implied but never confirmed. Many people are of the same opinion about who Jon's parents are, but having validation within the show itself is what people are looking for -- not strong implications. And I think that is why people like to discuss the possibilities major plot twists.

Again, I agree with you but I see why others are skeptical to jump to the conclusion.

I guess the difference is, I don't feel like validation is required at this point. A good way to put it would be: if the series jumped straight to telling Jon (through Bran or something else) that he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I wouldn't feel like they missed a step.

 

[Drew]

I don't know how much more evidence you could ask for...

Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna.
Rhaegar annulled his marriage and married Lyanna in secret.
Lyanna was guarded by Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy.
By all appearances, Lyanna died of complications from childbirth.

Thinking that Lyanna isn't the mother - she just coincidentally had abdominal hemorrhaging and Kingsguard protecting her - is ridiculous.
Thinking that Rhaegar isn't the father - the Kingsguard just coincidentally decided to throw their lives away to protect the bastard child of Rhaegar's wife - is ridiculous.

The books are named A Song of Ice and Fire, for R'hllor's sake.

Saying we don't have proof here is kind of like saying I don't have proof that my parents are actually my parents because I don't remember being born.

Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna. Generally accepted knowledge within the Seven Kingdoms. True enough, as far as I'm concerned.
Rhaegar annulled his marriage and married Lyanna in secret. The first part, yes, true.. The second part, though? All we know was he annulled his marriage, and then remarried. We don't know to whom, or when, this happened, just that it happened in Dorne (where the Tower of Joy was, but also, incidently, his publicly-known wife's homeland). Furthermore, after the "abduction," he returned to Elia Martell, lived with her for about a year, and fathered another child before dying in Robert's Rebellion. That's hardly the action of a man who had just annulled his marriage.
Lyanna was guarded by Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. True, confirmed on the show. This proves that Rhaegar or one of the two Kingsguard had a reason to protect or guard Lyanna or the unborn child, and this is probably the strongest argument for Rhaegar being the father, but it doesn't actually prove anything.
By all appearances, Lyanna died of complications from childbirth. True, or extremely likely true - it's GoT, so never assume anyone's dead until you see it on screen, but last we saw her she'd just given birth and was in rough shape. However, this doesn't confirm anything about Jon's father.

Listen, as far as we the viewers know, Rhaegar was married to someone else before Elia, and married her secretly in Dorne before their public ceremony. There were two clear opportunities for the show to confirm Rhaegar is Jon's father - first, when Lyanna was in bed, handing Ned the baby - it would be a simple matter for her to whisper "He is Rhaegar's son" or something like that. Second, when Gilly finds that reference to the annullment, she only reads (and misprounounces) Rhaegar's name, it would have been a simple matter to have had her continue "Rhaegar annulled his marraige, and remarried to someone named Lyanna...?" Sam likely wouldn't have known/recognized the name so it wouldn't have impacted the plot at all, but we would have. And, in both cases, they didn't.

I mean, given the last couple episodes, extremely sloppy writing IS a real possibility. But the show has been very careful to not actually explicitly confirm Jon's parentage. For a show known for shocking its fans, that's something worth watching.

Really, it's your second point where the whole thing falls apart. I'm pretty comfortable with the conclusion that Jon is Lyanna's son, barring some extremely wild plot twists (never say never, just say probably not). I don't think we've seen enough evidence to reasonably conclude Rhaegar was the father, however, yet virtually every single person watching the show is taking that as a matter of gospel. It could be true... but, if you were going to try to troll the fan base, that's one hell of a trap to lay for them, letting them believe a popular fan theory has been confirmed, only to upend it.

 

[bostjan]

I think it's more believable to expect the writers to troll us than not, especially with anything to do with Jon Snow.

I think the writers would be brilliant for taking the L+R=J fan theory and then to sporadically confirm L+?=?, L+?=J, and ?+R=?, and maybe eventually L+R=?, then have some huge twist where actually L+X=J and L+R=Y.

Spoiler

As far as a dragon wight, I think that's precisely what the dragon is now. A resurrected bear becomes a wight bear, a resurrected horse becomes a wight horse, and a resurrected man becomes a wight man. A resurrected dragon should be a wight dragon, then...using children to make new White Walkers seems like maybe a different kind of magic that requires a child, specifically, maybe even a specific sort of child, since Craster only gave up certain children.

 

[Drew]

I think it's more believable to expect the writers to troll us than not, especially with anything to do with Jon Snow.

I think the writers would be brilliant for taking the L+R=J fan theory and then to sporadically confirm L+?=?, L+?=J, and ?+R=?, and maybe eventually L+R=?, then have some huge twist where actually L+X=J and L+R=Y.

Spoiler

As far as a dragon wight, I think that's precisely what the dragon is now. A resurrected bear becomes a wight bear, a resurrected horse becomes a wight horse, and a resurrected man becomes a wight man. A resurrected dragon should be a wight dragon, then...using children to make new White Walkers seems like maybe a different kind of magic that requires a child, specifically, maybe even a specific sort of child, since Craster only gave up certain children.

Figure I should spoiler this.

Spoiler

I have a buddy with insane retention to detail for random stuff in fantasy novels, who's also a VERY bright guy. I sent him a message on this one after the anullment thing and we've been talking about it for a while now - his personal theory is R+L=D (B+A=J), as he and another of other proponents abbreviate this (this is evidently sort of a matter of religious faith in certain online circles). I'm not even going to pretend that I understand it all and I still have a lot of reading/viewing to do (he sent me some stuff on youtube to watch that explains it in depth) but the gist is Rhaegar and Lyanna DO have a child, but it's Dany, not Jon, and part of the process of keeping Dany safe was swapping babies at Starfell, on the way bck from the Tower of Joy, and taking Jon, a child of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark, in her place, so in case anyone ever figured out Ned had taken Lyanna's child from the Tower of Joy, they would be after the wrong child. Further, that Ashara's daughter wasn't still born after all, and that a third couple was involved (I think there's a couple theorized here but I can't recall) A lot of this makes NO sense (given the Rebellion was being won, Dany wouldn't exactly have been any safer, though the idea of hiding Rhaegar's secret child as his sister is, well, very GRRM) and frankly I don't have enough of a handle on the moving parts, but it certainly explains some odd things - the Dayne's seeming to feel they owe a debt to the Starks even though Ned (allegedly) killed Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy, the fact Dany remembers lemon trees (common in Dorne, not in Braavos), the fact Ned refuses to talk about Ashara whenever Caitlyn mentioned her... Idunno. I don't know if I'm convinced since the Dany side seems to have too many loose ends, but there IS some weird stuff in the way the Daynes and Starks interact.

Also - before the start of the season, I saw a season "poster" graphic with the HBO logo of the Night King riding a blue/grey dragon, breathing blue fire, shared by a semi-official GoT Facebook page. At the time I wrote it off as very professional looking fan art, but now I'm not so convinced.

Poster:

What I really want to know is what the swirling black shit is - maybe related to the magic protecting the wall breaking? I thought ravens at first, but it doesn't look right.

 

[vividox]

Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna. Generally accepted knowledge within the Seven Kingdoms. True enough, as far as I'm concerned.
Rhaegar annulled his marriage and married Lyanna in secret. The first part, yes, true.. The second part, though? All we know was he annulled his marriage, and then remarried. We don't know to whom, or when, this happened, just that it happened in Dorne (where the Tower of Joy was, but also, incidently, his publicly-known wife's homeland). Furthermore, after the "abduction," he returned to Elia Martell, lived with her for about a year, and fathered another child before dying in Robert's Rebellion. That's hardly the action of a man who had just annulled his marriage.
Lyanna was guarded by Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. True, confirmed on the show. This proves that Rhaegar or one of the two Kingsguard had a reason to protect or guard Lyanna or the unborn child, and this is probably the strongest argument for Rhaegar being the father, but it doesn't actually prove anything.
By all appearances, Lyanna died of complications from childbirth. True, or extremely likely true - it's GoT, so never assume anyone's dead until you see it on screen, but last we saw her she'd just given birth and was in rough shape. However, this doesn't confirm anything about Jon's father.

Listen, as far as we the viewers know, Rhaegar was married to someone else before Elia, and married her secretly in Dorne before their public ceremony. There were two clear opportunities for the show to confirm Rhaegar is Jon's father - first, when Lyanna was in bed, handing Ned the baby - it would be a simple matter for her to whisper "He is Rhaegar's son" or something like that. Second, when Gilly finds that reference to the annullment, she only reads (and misprounounces) Rhaegar's name, it would have been a simple matter to have had her continue "Rhaegar annulled his marraige, and remarried to someone named Lyanna...?" Sam likely wouldn't have known/recognized the name so it wouldn't have impacted the plot at all, but we would have. And, in both cases, they didn't.

I mean, given the last couple episodes, extremely sloppy writing IS a real possibility. But the show has been very careful to not actually explicitly confirm Jon's parentage. For a show known for shocking its fans, that's something worth watching.

Really, it's your second point where the whole thing falls apart. I'm pretty comfortable with the conclusion that Jon is Lyanna's son, barring some extremely wild plot twists (never say never, just say probably not). I don't think we've seen enough evidence to reasonably conclude Rhaegar was the father, however, yet virtually every single person watching the show is taking that as a matter of gospel. It could be true... but, if you were going to try to troll the fan base, that's one hell of a trap to lay for them, letting them believe a popular fan theory has been confirmed, only to upend it.

Fair enough. I can't say the show has been transparent with Rhaegar's involvement.


I do know, however, that after spending so many words on this topic today the series is like to wrap this up in the first five minutes on Sunday.

 

[Drew]

Fair enough. I can't say the show has been transparent with Rhaegar's involvement.


I do know, however, that after spending so many words on this topic today the series is like to wrap this up in the first five minutes on Sunday.

Isn't it called something like The Wolf and the Dragon? I figure we'll get an answer. Truth be told, that's half of why I want to discuss this now, because I kind of AM expecting a surprise.

Think about it, though - if/when the show finally confirms Rhaegar is Jon's father, who if anyone is going to be surprised by that? It'll make the scene a waste of time, unless we learn something else then.

 

[Steinmetzify]

It's about damn time. Couldn't stand that bastard.

 

[Steinmetzify]

Finished it.

Daaaaaaaamn.

 

[wankerness]

It was kind of nice having an episode with no surprises at all. I thought Jamie was going to get it, but nope. It had good character development and about the first great actor scene in SEASONS with Tyrion and Cersei. My favorite part of the episode, though, was Brienne and The Hound reconciling almost immediately! I was expecting them to want to kill each other or something dumb, but nope, they immediately explained their motivations in that fight and understood. Good for the writers!

Worst part of the episode was Jon Snow banging his aunt. God, those two are terrible actors together.

 

[Steinmetzify]

View media item 288

 

[KnightBrolaire]

Spoiler

thank god littlefinger got killed off. Nice and poetic how Arya used his own dagger against him, the one that literally started all of their problems. It's a great example of chekov's gun. I was honestly expecting cersei to murder tyrion and jaime. I'm not surprised that cersei is still plotting/being her normal cunty self. Cool to see the show straight up undeniably confirm that Jon is actually a targaryen, though having him bang his aunt is a bit weird, though fitting with the overall history of the targaryens and how they "keep it in the family". I wonder if Tormund survived the destruction of Eastwatch. Probably not.

 

[SD83]

Great episode, no major suprises. Liked the Cersei/Euron part, Sansa/Arya, even Theon a little bit. The last minutes back at the wall though were so bad they almost ruined the entire episode.

 

[MFB]

Spoiler

thank god littlefinger got killed off. Nice and poetic how Arya used his own dagger against him, the one that literally started all of their problems. It's a great example of chekov's gun. I was honestly expecting cersei to murder tyrion and jaime. I'm not surprised that cersei is still plotting/being her normal cunty self. Cool to see the show straight up undeniably confirm that Jon is actually a targaryen, though having him bang his aunt is a bit weird, though fitting with the overall history of the targaryens and how they "keep it in the family". I wonder if Tormund survived the destruction of Eastwatch. Probably not.

Spoiler

Him and Baeric survived the wall falling, they made it just to the edge of where it wasn't crumbling off

 

[bostjan]

Spoiler

If Tormund survived, he'd be stuck on top of the wall. Knowing that he has been able before to climb the wall means he might be able to survive, but I also wonder how he'd deal with having the Army of the Dead between him and the rest of the living.

 

[bostjan]

My biggest question:

Spoiler

To whom was the Hound referring, when he was teasing the Mountain? Who would be intimidating to the Mountain?!

Some great acting from Peter Dinklage and Lena Headley.

 

[narad]

^^ The Hound

 

[wankerness]

Yeah...what the heck was your reading bostjan? At no point did I think that was meant to sound like anything other than a threat from him to the mountain.