Games-as-a-Service

[TedEH]

I know there's a lot of people here who are into gaming a fair bit, so I'm curious to hear some thoughts on stuff that's going on in the world of games right now, in regards to how we're moving towards games being a service - that's the micro-transactions, the streaming services, the monthly plans, it's Stadia and Apple Arcade, it's mobile, always-online, massively-multiplayer, lootboxes, etc.- and I really don't like the direction some things are headed.

For context, I work in games (whenever you say "ugh, those lazy devs should have done x, it's so simple", I might be said lazy dev), so I see a lot of discussion about this kind of thing. I get the sense that a lot of people are worried that we're headed the same way the music industry went, with a broken model that doesn't compensate people in a way that makes sense, and that incentivises predatory mechanics, walled gardens, turns single-player or experience-based or experimental games into a niche thing with no real market, etc.

In more detail - here's some random points I've been thinking about lately:

- Streaming services take the point of not-actually-owning your games (like how you only have "licenses" on steam) a step farther. Not only do you not have anything physical to show for the games you "have", but now you might not even have individual licenses anymore. And those files are never on your own machine to be preserved, modded, etc.

- My understanding is that the new Apple platform is planning to pay devs in terms of fractions of cents per time spent with a game. We all know how well that turned out for music. Even if Apple were to pay for the initial development of what goes on their platform, it still sets a precedent for what the monetary value of time spent in a game is. This incentivizes games that want to hook you in for longer. That means more emphasis on those kinds of rewards cycles / feedback loops like random drops and flashy animations that are used for lootboxes. It means more emphasis on community based online stuff, and a move away from short single player experiences. It means it could take you a lifetime to build the greatest game in the world, but if it's playable in a hour, it's only worth a few fractions of a cent. It means the elimination of "I'm buying this because I want to support you", since unit sales are meaningless now.

- I feel like single player games have been getting the shaft, and it's only going to get worse. They're expensive and they aren't cash cows. Nobody wants to take the risk anymore, since it's now established that you can jump on bandwagons and produce cash cows. Indies want to make the next Angry Birds, and AAA wants to make the next Fortnite. Very few people are left in the middle making single-player experiences anymore. And those that are still feel the need to pack in-app purchases, DLC, "season passes" (whatever that every really means anymore) into those products. Most of that stuff comes from indies now - which isn't bad on it's own - but we've lost the AAA support for anything truly narrative driven, anything for a slower paced gamer, adventure gamers, etc.

- Mobile also kind of got the short end of the stick. I'm convinced that mobile can be a great platform for games, if it wasn't for the shape of the industry and platform (as in the stores) around them.

- I think people getting into retro gaming are doing it as a response to how the current industry isn't giving them what they got into gaming for anymore. I went back and played Majora's Mask in January, all the way through - and there's very little like this being made anymore, as far as I know. I think it's one of the best games ever made, and it's sort of like.... it doesn't feel like anyone is really trying to meet or beat that standard anymore. That doesn't mean that there's no good games being made at all, there's definitely good games still being made, but nothing that hits that same standard, to me.

I have more thoughts - always more thoughts - but.... anyway. What are other people's thoughts? Am I just the Old Man yelling at the Cloud?

 

[diagrammatiks]

Don’t know about googles plans. No opinion there.

Apples plan seems bad. If they get as big as Netflix maybe it will work out.

There’s really no incentive for mobile devs to develop for that platform.

 

[TedEH]

I don't know any details, but I would assume the incentive is that Apple is paying them to do it. If someone says "we'll fund the full development for a title if you put it on our platform", I imagine most would do it.

 

[Anquished]

You're a game dev? Nice - what sort of stuff have you worked on?

I don't play games nowhere near as much as I used to due to other commitments. When I do, I don't have much time to play so I usually just play single player games which I can come back to whenever I want and pick up where I left off.

I actually had a mild problem with addiction with Warframe, from the time-based stuff and the FOMO factor from the mechanics. I started to neglect more important aspects of my life outside of gaming. When I finally noticed how bad it was getting, I quit playing and felt so much better for it. Warfame is probably one of the least predatory "games as a service" types I know as well.

As a result, I personally stay clear of games in a similar vein and I can only imagine people my age with homes, full-time jobs and other hobbies outside of gaming maybe don't bother with them either. It's a shame that single player games aren't getting as much attention anymore. That being said, there have been some nice releases recently with DMC5 and Sekiro. Also I've seen that V:TM Bloodlines 2 is being worked on for a 2020 release. So not all doom and gloom!

 

[TedEH]

I can't really say what I've worked on for the most part cause anything of interest would be under NDA, and the rest are things like kids games and small marketing projects.

So not all doom and gloom!

Nah, there's definitely stuff to be excited about still. I still think there's a lot of Nintendo offerings out there that haven't quite made the transition to all this modern stuff I don't like. I still want to play the headliner titles from them. I'm speaking more the trend than the whole. I'm still excited for Psychonauts 2, maybe the System Shock remake. But my excitement is sort of cautious.

 

[Anquished]

I can't really say what I've worked on for the most part cause anything of interest would be under NDA, and the rest are things like kids games and small marketing projects.

Ah that makes sense - fair enough.

Nah, there's definitely stuff to be excited about still. I still think there's a lot of Nintendo offerings out there that haven't quite made the transition to all this modern stuff I don't like. I still want to play the headliner titles from them. I'm speaking more the trend than the whole. I'm still excited for Psychonauts 2, maybe the System Shock remake. But my excitement is sort of cautious.

I forgot about the System Shock remake, add that to the list.

As a whole, I can see the trend shifting that way. Clearly it's working and making them lots of cash but its nice to seem some push-back to the predatory practices such as lootboxes being investigated as gambling. I'm far too out of touch with gaming to make any assumptions or guesses on where it'll go from there. I'm sure it could get much much worse...

 

[wankerness]

- Streaming services take the point of not-actually-owning your games (like how you only have "licenses" on steam) a step farther. Not only do you not have anything physical to show for the games you "have", but now you might not even have individual licenses anymore. And those files are never on your own machine to be preserved, modded, etc.

[/QUOTE]

Stadia (and all forms of streaming we've been proposed so far) is BS. It's a complete non-starter in the majority of the US. I have been reading a lot about this Google bs, and their minimum bandwidth requirements are just not available to the majority of the country (regionally). And to those that they are, there are data caps in effects that would be hit after playing a 4K AC Odyssey or whatever in no time. There was also a good article on Kotaku about playing Doom Eternal through it on a very high-powered connection and focusing on response time. It was a very positive article that said "oh, there's lag, but you can mostly learn to compensate for it," which obviously means that it's a complete non-starter for anything multiplayer or requiring precision. SO, basically, it would only really be functional in the handful of cities that Google Fiber was installed in before they dropped that project like a hot potato. Google drops all kinds of projects after getting bored with them, which is another reason people are up in arms about this.

To say nothing of the rights issue you kinda mentioned - you can only play what the hosts want you to play at that moment, if they take stuff off their service, there it goes forever. Many people are probably fine with this, considering so many are fine with being spoon fed a selection of crap on Netflix and dealing with it coming and going at random.

- I feel like single player games have been getting the shaft, and it's only going to get worse. They're expensive and they aren't cash cows. Nobody wants to take the risk anymore, since it's now established that you can jump on bandwagons and produce cash cows. Indies want to make the next Angry Birds, and AAA wants to make the next Fortnite. Very few people are left in the middle making single-player experiences anymore. And those that are still feel the need to pack in-app purchases, DLC, "season passes" (whatever that every really means anymore) into those products. Most of that stuff comes from indies now - which isn't bad on it's own - but we've lost the AAA support for anything truly narrative driven, anything for a slower paced gamer, adventure gamers, etc.

I think they may be less "cash cow" than MM games, but there's no shortage of them and I'm not seeing them get any less hype than the multiplayer games when it comes to any news outlets I read. Or mainstream marketing, for that matter. I saw at least as many ads for RDR2 and AC Odyssey as I did for anything multiplayer other than maybe FIFA. When it comes to Twitch streamers or whatever, yeah, of course it's more interesting to see multiplayer strats/skill since they are much, much more dynamic.

There are PLENTY of great single player games that also have multiplayer modes. RDR2, the last Naughty Dog games, etc. Kind of like...many classic games on N64.

It seems like you then tried to also disqualify anything with "season passes," which yes, combined with anything that also has a multiplayer mode takes out the vast majority of AAA single player games. This seems like trying to come up with data to support a conclusion instead of vice versa, though. There were expansion packs back in the day, too!

If you look at the top selling games of 2018, I'd consider the list to be half games that have a very heavy single player focus. If you throw out "season pass" and games that also have a multiplayer mode, then yeah, you're left with Mario Odyssey and God of War only. Actually, for all I know, Mario Odyssey has DLC, I know the last Zelda game does.

- I think people getting into retro gaming are doing it as a response to how the current industry isn't giving them what they got into gaming for anymore. I went back and played Majora's Mask in January, all the way through - and there's very little like this being made anymore, as far as I know. I think it's one of the best games ever made, and it's sort of like.... it doesn't feel like anyone is really trying to meet or beat that standard anymore. That doesn't mean that there's no good games being made at all, there's definitely good games still being made, but nothing that hits that same standard, to me.

I think you're projecting your opinion onto everyone. Plenty of people that play retro games don't do it because they think all new games suck. I can only work with anecdotal evidence since I don't read about retro gaming beyond emulator updates, but my friends that have classic game collections or even simply bought the SNES Classic or whatever all still have current consoles and keep up with them and put much more playtime in on them.

Am I just the Old Man yelling at the Cloud?

Yes!

 

[Mathemagician]

Ever since WoW blew up and proved monthly fee games could be popular with more than just DND guys and people realized how profitable that model was, companies have been trying to find a way to emulate subscription gaming.

They would rather have everyone paying $10/mo = $120/yr than buying games used/only a handful of new games a year.

COD comes out every single year and has cosmetics, DLC, etc that get very close to or surpass the annual revenue from WOW’s monthly sub. Doesn’t matter how you slice it they are getting their cut.

That is the way the industry has been moving since the early ‘00’s.

And “pushing the envelope” is the name of the game. If a developer adds DLC, Times DLC, lootboxes, map packs AND horse armor and people buy it? The loud minority on the internet will be ignored.

This is a mature blockbuster driven industry. Just like movies there are not that many mid-level tier games being made to be enjoyed by fans of that niche/genre. It’s “too expensive”. Until an indie studio makes a billion $ off a great game and idea.

 

[TedEH]

If you look at the top selling games of 2018, I'd consider the list to be half games that have a very heavy single player focus.

I would disagree, given that lots of those are things like CoD, sports titles, etc.. I'd also argue that top-sales-lists don't reflect where focus is in terms of production, in terms of what's being played and discussed, etc. A list of "most played games" would be VERY different. Mostly mobas and battle-royales. I didn't say that they don't exist at all, but they are not a focus anymore.

I think you're projecting your opinion onto everyone. Plenty of people that play retro games don't do it because they think all new games suck.

I don't think I'm projecting. Even if I am, it's still one anecdotal experience compared to another. It doesn't change the fact that it's become a big thing that people get into for different reasons. I know I'm not the only one who goes back and plays older games out of a feeling that current releases don't appeal to me as much.

 

[TedEH]

My biggest sort of complaint is just that the move towards games being services is just not good for anyone. The single player stuff is mostly just me being sad that less of the stuff I'd personally like to see if being made, but my biggest concern is the service thing. The lootboxes and streaming and fractional play time payments, etc.

 

[Mathemagician]

It’s good for the EA’s and Activisions of the world. That’s about it.

 

[TedEH]

It's good for [the company that was, multiple times, voted to be the worst company in America] and [the company that just, despite making record profits, just fired 800 people for no other known reason than to cut costs].

 

[Mathemagician]

Yes.

 

[diagrammatiks]

My biggest sort of complaint is just that the move towards games being services is just not good for anyone. The single player stuff is mostly just me being sad that less of the stuff I'd personally like to see if being made, but my biggest concern is the service thing. The lootboxes and streaming and fractional play time payments, etc.

99 percent of the time devs are focused on making games that they want to play. Not games that players actually want to play.

 

[TedEH]

99 percent of the time devs are focused on making games that they want to play.

I don't believe this is true by a long shot. Again, I AM a dev.

Without breaking any NDAs, I would guess there's a high likelihood you've played something my name is in the credits for.

 

[diagrammatiks]

I don't believe this is true by a long shot. Again, I AM a dev.

Again, without breaking any NDAs, I would guess there's a high likelihood you've played something my name is in the credits for.

I run studio with over 30 people.

So ok. Believe whatever the fuck you want.

 

[TedEH]

There are a lot more than 30 people in the industry. Neither of our anecdotes are enough data to say that the "majority" of devs do anything. I don't believe for a moment that 99% percent of that time is spent where people would like it to be spent. If that's the case in your studio, then props to you, I guess.

 

[diagrammatiks]

There are a lot more than 30 people in the industry. Neither of our anecdotes are enough data to say that the "majority" of devs do anything. I don't believe for a moment that 99% percent of that time is spent where people would like it to be spent.

I mean ok. Are you rich. Was your studio bought out because you’re pulling a billion in revenue.

My discord groups and chat groups are filled with small and big indie devs that are making the next innovative game super fun game.

They are all broke.

If you want to be pedantic then sure. Not 99 percent. But the majority of small studios and self employed devs are doing it completely wrong.

 

[Lorcan Ward]

- I feel like single player games have been getting the shaft, and it's only going to get worse. They're expensive and they aren't cash cows. Nobody wants to take the risk anymore, since it's now established that you can jump on bandwagons and produce cash cows.

I really dislike multiplayer and don't really enjoy FPS games so its getting harder and harder for me to find a game to play. I was thinking about buying Metro but didn't after seeing a bunch of reviews so the next game I might buy is Rage 2, after that The Outer Worlds, Cyberypunk and DOOM Eternal might be the only future games I get. I'd love a streaming service for games since I'd give a lot more games that I'd never buy a try.

Streaming games has an enormous flaw though and thats mod support so PC gamers are always going to feel inclined to have a game installed where they can run fan patches and various mods. Now that Fallout 4 and Skyrim has mod support on consoles I'd have to buy all future releases on Xbox or PC. I'm not optimistic on the Stadia because internet connections are nowhere near the level to stream games for so many people. A millisecond lag is a death sentence in so many games.

 

[TedEH]

Are you rich

Nope.

Was your studio bought out

Technically, yes.

you’re pulling a billion in revenue

Nope.
Actually... I need to google that...
Still nope. Nowhere close to a billion a year in revenue, even at the level of the parent company.

My discord groups and chat groups are filled with small and big indie devs that are making the next innovative game super fun game.

They are all broke.

But the majority of small studios and self employed devs are doing it completely wrong.

I don't understand how this relates to what you originally said, and what I was disagreeing with: The idea that the majority of people who work on games are working on something they themselves would want to play. It's a nice sentiment, but I don't think it's even remotely true.

Sure, there are lots of of people who are making the games they would like to see be made. But I can't imagine they are the majority of devs - especially if you're talking only about the people who are doing it professionally (aka, taking hobbyists out of the equation) . What about kids games? What about titles that exist for only marketing purposes? What about sub-contractors and work-for-hire studios who basically work on whatever will pay them? What about the larger AAA titles that have soooo many people involved that it would be ridiculous to assume they're all working towards the kind of games they themselves enjoy? Are we counting the art / audio / marketing people involved in this?

I would love to believe that games are only ever made as passion projects by dedicated, talented and loving teams who have nothing but the best in mind for the product, the industry, the fans of those franchises, etc. But that's not a fair assumption to throw on the majority of the industry.