Getting a refund for a custom build?

[Shaynos]

Hey guys, I've got a question here regarding a custom build I got done by Sabre Guitars in the UK. Now, firstly, it hasn't ever been my desire to heap sh*t on a brand, and it still isn't, but I'm not really sure what to do at this stage. I'll start with the story of what has happened. (Also, it may help to note that I'm in Australia and the company is in England). Please let me know if this is in the wrong section of the forum.

July 2013 - Paid a 50% deposit for a custom guitar. I was told it would be completed around December. [FONT=&quot]Communication was great when I was ordering, but got terrible quickly. At first it was due to "email problems". When I did hear back it was things like "it should be completed in 2 weeks" and then 3 or more months would go by without any word, or "I will send you pics tomorrow" and no reply for a few months. I only ever got a few low-res pictures which never included the headstock.
December 2014 - A year after the supposed due date I get the guitar.
January 2015 - I email about several issues I have with the guitar after owning it for a few weeks. No reply, I email and fb message every couple weeks. After about 3-4 months I make a post on the builder's thread on here and finally he gets in touch with me. (link[FONT=&quot] to some pictures at bottom)[/FONT]
April 2015 - He manages to convince me that he will repair all issues in a matter of weeks. I put forward a list of demands and time requirements. He guarantees it will be no more than 2 weeks with him and he will send pictures etc before sending back.
October 2015 - The guitar finally gets to the builder. There was 1 instance of the courier sending the guitar back and 2 instances where he had organised the guitar to be picked up (when I was actually home for the day - I teach at a high school and it's not practical to have parcels picked up there) and nobody came to pick it up. The reponse was "oh, didn't they come and get it?" despite not sending me the forms to print out like he did on the times when it was actually picked up. He again reiterates "2 weeks before it'll be winging its way back to you"
December 16 2015 - Work is completed on the guitar and it's ready to ship back to me. I ask for pictures and they get me pictures a few days later. I say "all good, ship it back".
December 29 2015 - Still hasn't shipped. Assistant tells me that the luthier is out of the workshop until Jan 4.
January 9 2016 - Finally get a reply, shipping out Monday.
January 14 2016 - Didn't ship Monday "issues with courier"
January 24 2016 - I tell him I'm done. I no longer want the guitar back. If he still wont refund he can onsell it to another buyer for me. I basically just want my money back. He agrees to this, and admits that they have let me down etc.
June 3 2016 - I tell the guy that this is taking way too long, and I'm tired of not having my messages replied to. There was one instance with a potential buyer, but he never got back to me. So I say I just want it refunded, because this seems like it will go on indefinitely.

I've sent many messages since then to the guitar fb page and the luthier's personal page and gotten no reply. Many of the messages have been seen according to fb, but not replied to. This has been consistent throughout all of this. In between every contact there were broken promises, due dates passed without word, no reply to emails and messages, and a million different excuses (which he has used with other people that I've spoken to)

So I'm not sure what to do. I paid 19[FONT=&quot]49[/FONT]gbp ([FONT=&quot]2600[/FONT]usd / 3[FONT=&quot]51[FONT=&quot]0[/FONT][/FONT]aud) for this guitar and I feel like I'm never gonna see that money back. I don't want the guitar obviously as even if I got it and it played well, which it didn't the first time, it's forever tainted. Being in a different country makes things difficult. If it was in Australia I would take them through the Department of Fair Trading to get my money back.

Sorry for the massive post - just wanting to know people's thoughts. For those interested as well, here are the photos of some of the issues the guitar had. ([FONT=&quot]btw that shim was put in by my luth[FONT=&quot]ier here in Brisbane straight after I got it when I was getting a setup done, the damage was already there[FONT=&quot])[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AtIBcbsO1KYSkgRXFzM-UktsD1kY
[/FONT]

 

[starkill]

Sounds like you had really fun with this guy.

 

[ICSvortex]

I would suggest going to that department of fair trade and describing the situation to them. You need all the emails and shipping sheets etc. They can help you even if its internationally. They can get you your money back, or at least they can tell you who to ask if they cant help you

 

[narad]

Well I'd start by heaping sh*t onto a brand that clearly had no hesitations about heaping sh*t onto you. I get your being nice/not naming names, but builders who do this kind of stuff they should be called out, by name.

 

[TheTrooper]

Wow, that is the worst Custom order i've ever seen.
The fretboard isn't at level AT ALL on the last frets and the paintjob looks horrible.

Can You share what's the name of the luthier/company?
I don't really see the point in writing a rant but without mentioning names.....

 

[Shaynos]

I figured it wouldn't be too hard to deduce which brand it is, based upon the pictures. But both you guys are absolutely right (Narad and TheTrooper), being a nice guy has gotten me nowhere and others deserve to know what a brand is like to work with. I've fixed the initial thread and put the guitar brand name in it. The guitar was a Sabre Ghost 6-String.

 

[Zado]

Those flaws are totaly unacceptable, how can one call himself a luthier with this kind of behaviour and flaws is beyond me. No shame.

 

[Mathemagician]

Never cover for builders/businesses like that. Others may naively give them money in the meantime if they aren't aware.

 

[Nightside]

Isn't this another guy from the dealer section?


I've learned not to buy custom guitars from builders I've only ever heard of through SSO dealer threads.

 

[Shaynos]

Never cover for builders/businesses like that. Others may naively give them money in the meantime if they aren't aware.

Yeah, you're right which is why I've fixed the thread to include the Sabre name in the first post. You can also see the brand logo in one of the pictures.

Isn't this another guy from the dealer section?


I've learned not to buy custom guitars from builders I've only ever heard of through SSO dealer threads.

There used to be a build thread, but it looks like it has been closed. I only found out about the brand though the thread on here - unfortunately I jumped in too soon, before I started seeing negative things being said.

 

[bostjan]

It's not just luthiers and repair shops on this site, I assure you. There was a shop in California that I contracted once, the price was very reasonable, and the quoted turnaround time was unbelievably short. Three years after, I got my guitar back with not a single modification to it, other than tarnish on the frets and rust on the hardware from sitting so long without being touched. I was fairly lucky compared to others.

In this case, I don't know what advice I can give. Taking over a month to ship out a rush job...there are no words.

As for getting your money back - you should simply demand your money back. If this guy does shady work, there is no way anyone is going to buy the guitar for anywhere near that kind of money. Let him know ASAP that you are demanding your money back, give him 30 days to respond, and after that, send him a nice polite letter from a law office, demanding your money back. You might think you are in a bad spot, since he has your guitar and your money, but there's nothing that can fix that now, so you'll need to be very firm from here out.

 

[GXPO]

Such a shame, the Sabre dude seemed so genuine.. I understand how communications issues can come up and often they're symptomatic of wider issues with the production, but I always believed that the Sabre product seemed like a good one.

I hope you have some luck getting this sorted.

 

[7 Strings of Hate]

You might just be hosed. I'm telling you guys, you gotta stop sending your hard earned money to fly by night shops until they prove themselves. I wish you luck.

 

[Wolfhorsky]

Oh, i feel sorry for Your problems, mate. You should talk to a lawyer. They helped me A LOT and many times saved my money and nerves. If You manage to get Your money back, You can spend it on another. If You want a custom, i can recommend Skervesen. I have one and another build coming to an end soon. I have pictures every few months with the progress. They manage to make it within 10 months. I hope You will get a refund. Cheers.

 

[bostjan]

You might just be hosed. I'm telling you guys, you gotta stop sending your hard earned money to fly by night shops until they prove themselves. I wish you luck.

Well, not that I disagree with you at all, but everybody has to start somewhere. The fact that so many of these little shops are either scamming people or failing so hard at business that they end up unintentionally scamming people means that guitar builders in general are getting a really bad name. But even Gibson and Martin and Ibanez had to start by building a few guitars.

I know that it's very difficult to run a small business, but seriously, the list of builders that have been noted on message boards (not just this one) lately for taking the money and not delivering the product is staggering. When there were one or two, I was disappointed, but, now that the list is about half a page long, and to think I briefly considered a couple of those names at one time, I'm just not able to grasp what common factor is behind all of this...

Having ordered from small luthiers before, I think I learned my lesson with my first bad experience, and have had only wonderful experiences since. I will say that I am a tiny bit out on a limb right now with something special, but the guy didn't bat an eye when I approached him using blatant caution.

 

[UnderTheSign]

Sabre had a long, long thread on here with was half good experiences, half complaints, long wait times, botched builds and whatnot. Ones of his unofficial 'representatives' caused some trouble on here and the thread was locked.

This was posted on their FB page. It's interesting to see how many luthiers suddenly get hospitalised, have their mom die or have their garage go up in fire when pressure starts to build. Not saying he isn't legitimately ill but it's certainly a phenomenon.
"Hi Guys just to keep you updated. Chris has been unwell and is currently in hospital. His apprentice is not insured to be in the workshop on his own and Sabre being a small company these are the only two guys in the workshop. I help with a bit of social media now again and will keep you updated - he hopes to get back to it soon but needs some time away to get better (it won't be long). If there are any pressing issues please message the page and I will speak to you directly to keep you updated. Regards, David."

I'd suggest messaging them again through the page though and if that doesn't work, post on their wall every week. Make it public until they finally respond. Businesses hate people going public about their issues.

 

[narad]

Tell tale signs:
-- new builder, long wait list
-- new builder, prices guitar like legit builder
-- new builder, you've seen < 10 finished guitars and they're publicly taking orders
-- no NGDs showing up, rebuttal of "not everyone who orders guitars posts here", no new finished guitar pictures going up on FB but then posts of "We had a busy year - 24 guitars delivered!" etc.
-- few guitars that are delivered show up for sale shortly after delivery
-- stops posting on forums
-- group buy run for roughly as many or more guitars than you've actually seen photos of (run!)
-- auction "in stock" guitars while guys in queue wait (RUUUNNNN!!)

This guy had them all. Along with some really cool and novel designs, so it's sad to see him end up this way. He had advertised an internship sort of thing that I was actually interested in, but looking at that guitar, I'd be better off self taught! In hindsight, I sort of wonder if that was just a way to get some free labor for sanding and other menial labor.

But yea, it's not hard to spot this kind of behavior.

 

[TuffyKohler]

another trip to hospital during a run. awww

Harsh, maybe, but Sabre deserves what they get. They suck. The people, the communication, and the guitars.

No surprises here from Sabre. Total BS company. Run far far away.

I'm one of those guys that did get my guitar, and then sold it for far far less than I paid. (traded it actually) The new owner then refretted it, refinished it, and essentially did what Sabre should have been doing, quality work. I was just happy to get that thing out of my site, I didn't really care about the monetary loss at that point.

The entire experience with Sabre was full of excuses. I considered going the route the OP did and sending the guitar back to get 'fixed'. The absolute .... communication left me with no confidence I would ever get the guitar back, or fixed. Did Lorcan ever get his back that was in for repairs?

I'm on a couple Ormsby runs, but other than that, I'm not giving money out to any small time 'luthiers' any more. I can and have built guitars of the same or better quality than Sabre, and I have no business selling what I build, as they are not up to my standards, much less a paying customer.

 

[demonx]

Next time, buy Australian!

 

[Shaynos]

As for getting your money back - you should simply demand your money back.

The last few messages I have sent have been doing just that. Just can't get a reply atm, so the next step is to start asking publicly on his page like somebody else here suggested.

Such a shame, the Sabre dude seemed so genuine.. I understand how communications issues can come up and often they're symptomatic of wider issues with the production, but I always believed that the Sabre product seemed like a good one.

This is what I've always thought. Chris probably isn't a bad guy. Seems more to me like a guy who's in a hole and keeps digging it deeper. However, I do believe that many of his excuses are bs and blame-shifting. Particularly when I've spoken to 2 other people who have bought customs through him and they've had almost identical experiences and the same excuses etc. I mean there's only so many times "the courier stuffed up and sent it back after 6 weeks" can actually happen.

I'm on a couple Ormsby runs, but other than that, I'm not giving money out to any small time 'luthiers' any more.

Next time, buy Australian!

I actually did go Australian and was on the first Ormsby GTR run and got myself a HypeGTR which I love. What guitars are you grabbing Tuffy?

Also, demonx, really like your designs mate. I love your use of Aussie timbers. If I had the spare 'guitar money' I'd totally be in on one of those runs you're offering.