Getting a refund for a custom build?

[SDMFVan]

Well, not that I disagree with you at all, but everybody has to start somewhere. The fact that so many of these little shops are either scamming people or failing so hard at business that they end up unintentionally scamming people means that guitar builders in general are getting a really bad name. But even Gibson and Martin and Ibanez had to start by building a few guitars.

The difference being of course that all of those companies started out by building those guitars, and only selling completed ready for sale instruments to the public. Nobody should trust ANY company on here who's initial business plan is to start taking deposits on custom orders. There's a reason that every major manufacturers "custom shop" was started well after their initial retail business was up and running smoothly...

 

[Andromalia]

...

QFT. A guy like Rob Chapman managed to start a brand out of nowhere by delivering what he advertised and using a previously built rep. He didn't do it by starting custom runs.

 

[Ebony]

Theft is theft, doesn't matter if it is an incapable "luthier" or a bank robber.
According to the company's facebook site, he's ill. Even if it is true, his bank account isn't. And you don't need some special excuse either.
Just the fact that you got a sh*t product is more than enough reason to demand your money back.

Offcourse, none of this matters if you're not prepared to take some sort of action.
I haven't a clue about specific british/australian trade laws, but certainly there most be somekind of presedence?
And if that's not the case, there is always the doorstep option...

 

[bostjan]

The difference being of course that all of those companies started out by building those guitars, and only selling completed ready for sale instruments to the public. Nobody should trust ANY company on here who's initial business plan is to start taking deposits on custom orders. There's a reason that every major manufacturers "custom shop" was started well after their initial retail business was up and running smoothly...

Hmm, do you know that for a fact, or are you speculating?

Did you know that Orville Gibson actually went through the same failures as all of these little luthiers today are going through.

Check this link: History of Gibson

* Not that it excuses any of the disgusting behaviour we've seen from some "luthiers."

 

[narad]

Did you know that Orville Gibson actually went through the same failures as all of these little luthiers today are going through.

Check this link: History of Gibson

We're really going to refer to an incident from 1902 in this thread?

 

[Leberbs]

We're really going to refer to an incident from 1902 in this thread?

Ah, the year that birthed Djent. Gimme those scattin' ragtime breakdowns.

 

[bostjan]

We're really going to refer to an incident from 1902 in this thread?

My point is that every business starts small. People saying "don't trust small businesses" are missing the boat. If people's attitude toward any of their favourite brands was to not trust them, solely based upon size, then they would fail.

-- new builder, long wait list

This means nothing. Maybe the builder quotes an 18 month turn-around time and delivers in six, and everyone's happy, or maybe the builder quotes six, and delivers in eighteen and pisses you off. Maybe it's an ages-old builder, and you wait a lot longer than you ought to have. I don't see how this is relevant.

-- new builder, prices guitar like legit builder

This also means nothing, maybe you get what you pay for, or maybe not. Maybe an old builder has a high price and delivers .... to your door. It happens all of the time. Irrelevant.

-- new builder, you've seen < 10 finished guitars and they're publicly taking orders

Also meaningless. Every builder out there, at one point, had built less than ten guitars. If no one bought them, they would not be able to build more.

-- no NGDs showing up, rebuttal of "not everyone who orders guitars posts here", no new finished guitar pictures going up on FB but then posts of "We had a busy year - 24 guitars delivered!" etc.
-- few guitars that are delivered show up for sale shortly after delivery
-- stops posting on forums
-- group buy run for roughly as many or more guitars than you've actually seen photos of (run!)
-- auction "in stock" guitars while guys in queue wait (RUUUNNNN!!)

The rest is all signs of trouble. This is the crap that we see all of the time on the forum with new builders, and yes, sometimes with old builders, or builders who have managed to establish a good reputation at one point before some major incident that ruined that reputation.

No one is exempt from delivering a lemon guitar to you. A lot of folks around here get swindled by one small time luthier and immediately start trashing on all boutique guitars. It might be a way to get people fired up on your side of the bandwagon, but it's not correct. There are a lot of ....ty luthiers out there, but there are good ones who are new, old, or in between. If somebody, like Sabre, takes people's money and delivers nothing, or, perhaps worse, an unapologetically .... guitar, then they deserve to go out of business forever. On the flip side, a new, but honest luthier, who does good work, needs not to be shunned simply for being new... caution, yes, shunning, no.

My point is, that for all of the Roters and Sabres and BRJs and Strictly 7s etc. etc. etc., it rightly gives everyone a bad taste for small dealers, but you've also got KxK and Oni and Freenote and Conklin etc. etc. etc. who do great work and have great communication with customers. And you have stuff in between that might fit into certain other niches but still be functional businesses, like Wish Bass, who, frankly, delivers a pretty dank-looking "finished" product, but for a tenth of the cost of any other boutique instrument...

It looks like the group buy deals have more often than not ended in sadness for everyone. But if someone is thinking of buying a boutique guitar from a small luthier, ask around here for people who have had good experiences, talk to the luthier and see how well he communicates, and what his life's goals are toward guitar building. If something seems off, then something is probably off.

Both of us (narad and bostjan) have had bad experiences with luthiers before, and I have many friends who have been ....ed over by big companies and little alike when buying a custom. I still have a "bright" outlook that one can buy responsibly from a newer builder and have a great experience.

TL;DR - Buy responsibly.

 

[Dust_to_Dust]

He was in hospital apparently, yet the on the builders Instagram (I think its him, he follows me) he's posting Gym and food photos?

They're currently doing an EUGear run too, which they tried to get me to get on. Their guitars that I have seen do look nice, but there's no denying that its run like a ....heap.

TL;DR: If you get the refund, why not Aristides?

 

[narad]

This means nothing. x3

You say it means nothing, but ...

Regarding setting a high price right out, it's guys like Decibel that build practically one guitar and then say, hey, I'm the real deal, I'm taking orders, price is up there with established builders. I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's not likely that this is warranted. Every builder I can think of that I've seen go from nothing to an established reputation did not do this. Yes, someone with no experience can magically build a great guitar in their first batch, but is this typical? No.

Regarding taking custom orders right out, again, guys like Decibel. On the flip side, there's guys like Walterson here that do these fantastic home builds and all these cool designs and I basically say, "how do I get one!?" And get I responses like, maybe in the future after some more builds and infrastructure will I start doing custom orders, etc. Sensible. A reply that reflects taking orders is a serious commitment.

Regarding waitlists, a waitlist is like the #1 bane of SSO small builders. It seems a majority of builders have a hard time properly estimating their wait times, and if a guy is just starting out, then he really has no clue.

You're entitled to your opinion, but if you tell me just those three things and I had to bet on whether this was going to be disaster or success, I'd have made a lot of money wagering on disaster when it comes to the brands brewing on this forum.

On the flip side, it sounds like you're saying to ignore these things because of this magical theoretical builder who shows up, builds an amazing guitar on his first go, then takes a huge waitlist of high-priced guitars. If that sounds like sensible advice to you, then go for it. Personally I've been a lot less stressed since moving on (maybe 3 years ago) from supporting these guys who start taking orders when they've produced more 3d renders than real guitars, watching these ....storms from the sidelines.

 

[TheTrooper]

I figured it wouldn't be too hard to deduce which brand it is, based upon the pictures. But both you guys are absolutely right (Narad and TheTrooper), being a nice guy has gotten me nowhere and others deserve to know what a brand is like to work with. I've fixed the initial thread and put the guitar brand name in it. The guitar was a Sabre Ghost 6-String.

Never cared for the brand, but damn, what the hell were they doing on that guitar?

I will never understand why almost everybody in forums are so deeply into custom guitars (which in the end, totally suck) made by almost unknown builders or builders with not a too good of a reputation.

For that prices You could easily get a Daemoness; sure the waitlist is long, but the same is the waitlist for a Ferrari.
If people keep coming in the restaurant and there aren't free tables, it means it's good

 

[SDMFVan]

Hmm, do you know that for a fact, or are you speculating?

Did you know that Orville Gibson actually went through the same failures as all of these little luthiers today are going through.

Check this link: History of Gibson

* Not that it excuses any of the disgusting behaviour we've seen from some "luthiers."

Hmm...let's take a look...

October 10, 1902 The Gibson Mandolin-Guitar Mfg. Co., Ltd. is formed. Orville's mandolins are far superior to the bowlbacks or &#8220;taterbugs&#8221; of his day, and he is unable to meet the rising demand. Five Kalamazoo businessmen buy rights to his name and patent for $2500 and hire him as a consultant. Orville is not one of the principals of the Gibson company, but he does own some stock. Within six months, however, he is at odds with the board of managers, and he sells his stock to his local saloon keeper. Orville continues to receive a royalty and later a pension until his death in 1918.

So Orville Gibson was the original fly by night luthier and Gibson guitars wouldn't exist as we know it today if control of the company hadn't been taken away from him.

I stand by my statement that companies like Gibson, Fender and PRS etc., as we know them today, became successful by building a production line of instruments and delivering them to customers.

 

[bostjan]

You say it means nothing, but ...

Regarding setting a high price right out, it's guys like Decibel that build practically one guitar and then say, hey, I'm the real deal, I'm taking orders, price is up there with established builders. I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's not likely that this is warranted. Every builder I can think of that I've seen go from nothing to an established reputation did not do this. Yes, someone with no experience can magically build a great guitar in their first batch, but is this typical? No.

Regarding taking custom orders right out, again, guys like Decibel. On the flip side, there's guys like Walterson here that do these fantastic home builds and all these cool designs and I basically say, "how do I get one!?" And get I responses like, maybe in the future after some more builds and infrastructure will I start doing custom orders, etc. Sensible. A reply that reflects taking orders is a serious commitment.

Regarding waitlists, a waitlist is like the #1 bane of SSO small builders. It seems a majority of builders have a hard time properly estimating their wait times, and if a guy is just starting out, then he really has no clue.

You're entitled to your opinion, but if you tell me just those three things and I had to bet on whether this was going to be disaster or success, I'd have made a lot of money wagering on disaster when it comes to the brands brewing on this forum.

On the flip side, it sounds like you're saying to ignore these things because of this magical theoretical builder who shows up, builds an amazing guitar on his first go, then takes a huge waitlist of high-priced guitars. If that sounds like sensible advice to you, then go for it. Personally I've been a lot less stressed since moving on (maybe 3 years ago) from supporting these guys who start taking orders when they've produced more 3d renders than real guitars, watching these ....storms from the sidelines.

You are taking my objection to your hyperbole, for the sake of it being hyperbole, and making it out to be the opposite hyperbole instead. I've dealt with small builders with long wait times and comparable prices and starting off the bat with custom orders and had the most wonderful experience. But I'm not saying that my anecdote in any way trumps your anecdote to the opposite side of the equation. I'm merely saying that you don't always have good or always have bad. I never once said it was safe to buy from a small builder irresponsibly.

I will never understand why almost everybody in forums are so deeply into custom guitars (which in the end, totally suck) made by almost unknown builders or builders with not a too good of a reputation.

For that prices You could easily get a Daemoness; sure the waitlist is long, but the same is the waitlist for a Ferrari.
If people keep coming in the restaurant and there aren't free tables, it means it's good

Daemoness is a small custom builder.

On the contrary to your first statement, I see way more opposition from people, when someone wants to order a custom guitar, saying "just get an Ibanez." I don't understand why everyone has to either be anti-production or anti-custom. Why can't people just buy what they want to buy, get the specs they want, if they want to pay for them, and then have the builder not rip them off.

Hmm...let's take a look...

So Orville Gibson was the original fly by night luthier and Gibson guitars wouldn't exist as we know it today if control of the company hadn't been taken away from him.

I stand by my statement that companies like Gibson, Fender and PRS etc., as we know them today, became successful by building a production line of instruments and delivering them to customers.

Orville wasn't mass producing guitars. I never said he was "the original fly by night luthier," to the contrary, there have always been "fly by night luthiers." You never mentioned PRS nor Fender until now.

I said "even Gibson and Martin and Ibanez had to start by building a few guitars," with which you disagreed. But they did.

---------------

This is nuts. Every time somebody gets ripped off by some guy taking advantage of the forum, it turns into a huge mess about "all small luthiers are ....," or "let's dogpile on the guy who bought a guitar from a small luthier for being naive." I made the mistake of hoping that we could simply cool it on the abrupt conclusions and overgeneralizations.

I'm out of this thread. If anyone wants to continue the discussion in PM, I'm totally down for it. I don't even mind if you PM me to tell me I'm a dummy and I'm wrong, just please let's keep this thread free from it from here out.

The last thing I'll say is best of luck to the OP and I'm so sorry your thread turned into such a mess.

 

[Prophetable]

bostjan, you're just so wrong in this thread that it is making my head hurt.

-New builder long wait list : Demonstrates inexperience and probably bad business sense
-New builder prices like old pro : Demonstrates a level of vanity that means they are probably more likely to argue that your guitar is right than fix their mistakes
-New builder that has made less than 10 guitars and is taking orders : You don't learn how to do your job on your customer's dime

I like how you came in, started arguments, and then tried to leave your last post acting like you're the hero for cleaning up the thread that you polluted in the first place.


OP: Sorry you got hosed by Sabre. Just keep on him and good luck.

 

[narad]

-New builder long wait list : Demonstrates inexperience and probably bad business sense
-New builder prices like old pro : Demonstrates a level of vanity that means they are probably more likely to argue that your guitar is right than fix their mistakes
-New builder that has made less than 10 guitars and is taking orders : You don't learn how to do your job on your customer's dime

Yea, I mean, this is a much more succinct description of how I feel.

You do see counterexamples to all of this stuff. For instance, Julius Jahn is doing a group buy run on here that seems to have produced instruments. And I took one look at it and said, nope, too many warning signs. But I'd rather stay safe and outlay some rough guidelines on how to avoid BRJ/ViK/Sabre situations (as that rule would), than to get a Jahn maybe a year earlier than other people.

But really, what's the point of ordering a guitar from a brand new builder? Another important point, you can support the guy with < 10 builds all you want, but I don't know *a single* luthier who will say, "Yea, what I'm building today is exactly as good as what I was building back then." Everyone's getting better. You can order early and maybe you wind up with a guitar without any serious flaws, but you're more likely to get a better instrument sitting back and waiting a year or two (and you avoid most of that early risk altogether, what a bonus!). So I find it very hard to advocate for this.

 

[electriceye]

I'm stunned by those pictures. The nut alone is atrociously bad. But....wow. I wouldn't even have asked for them to fix it the first time. I would have been FUMING if I got a custom axe and it looked like a Hondo.

 

[Leberbs]

Maybe I never seen a nut in a detailed shot like that, but does it look like the slot widths are extremely wide?

 

[Prophetable]

Yeah, they're crazy. Nothing but wiggle. That would drive me insane.

 

[TuffyKohler]

Also meaningless. Every builder out there, at one point, had built less than ten guitars. If no one bought them, they would not be able to build more.

TL;DR - Buy responsibly.

Nope. Pondman? don't think he's selling, and he can't be stopped. And not that I'm anywhere near that level, I just finished #9, with #10 almost done, #11 not far behind, and many more coming. I haven't sold anything. Don't really intend to.

I actually did go Australian and was on the first Ormsby GTR run and got myself a HypeGTR which I love. What guitars are you grabbing Tuffy?

Also on Run 1, Azure HypeGTR.
Run 2 due to arrive on Friday, High Alert TX
Also grabbed one of the extra Eaton TX, hasn't shipped yet
Run 4 Goliath

 

[Shaynos]

The last thing I'll say is best of luck to the OP and I'm so sorry your thread turned into such a mess.

Thanks, although I don't think the thread has turned into too much of a mess. Differing opinions maybe, but it's all relevant.

I agree with the consensus that I obviously should've done my homework a bit better in the first place, or more accurately waited a lot longer. But like many that have come before me I was too keen, it was my first custom, and now here we are.

I've still been messaging without reply. The messages to the Sabre page have still been seen without reply, the personal ones to Chris aren't even 'seen' according to fb (although I highly doubt they aren't actually seen). I put a post on the wall of the sabre page. I guess in a few days I might have to outline the specific problems with included pictures.

I've looked up the UK office of fair trading, and most of it only applies to UK residents, but I'll keep digging around and see if maybe I contact somebody who can look at the specifics of my case.

 

[UnderTheSign]

Doesn't look like a hospital dinner to me, no.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHK7_x3gl7K/

Well, the hospital thing was a couple of weeks ago. But if you can post pictures of steak, you can answer important customer emails.