Guitars, drums and bass mix questions.

[neurosis]

Helo all. I have been trying to record some clean to heavy rock type mix in Logic Pro and have a bunch of questions.

I used this program to mix some stuff for other art projects and was going for a totally different approach. Lots of layering, heavy eq and basically a myriad of dowhatworks without clipping sort of approach.

But a few weeks ago I started trying to record a proper song. Trying to get things to sound closer to let´s say what Opeth, instead of Throbbing Gristle would do is proving itself really hard so far.

• My first lesson was put gain -18dB on every track to allow some headroom for later.
• My second one was record first, eq minor subtractive details on separate tracks if you will, set up buses for shared delays and reverb separately.
• Third thing was clean guitars can be placed to the front, but group heavy guitars separately and pan them hard left and right to fatten them up.
• Fourth was that I can do stacks for those guitars, sending every track to a shared stereo submix which can then be eq´d one last time to tweak and shape the whole chunk into the mix if needed.
• I also learned how to separate EZDrummer to a multi output and have that also placed in a summing stack.

So far that´s ok to lay out the foundation of a song, right?

However, with all tracks at -18dB, once each group is fattened with compression and space is carved with eq to separate the parts... I start noticing that some things stuck out way more than others.

I was wondering if there is a recipe or a way to start tweaking levels and what things to watch for to get a half decent start. I have noticed that guitars, no matter how layered and tweaked tend to wash out the drums. I have also noticed that the guitars sound ok on their own but once they get mixed the totally loosen up as long as there is no bass.

How do you set up levels and basically control output?

For example, my summing stack with the overdriven guitars was going close to red (albeit sounding really ballsy) so I put a limiter on it set to -5dB. Is that ok? Or should I have made a folder stack and routed them to a bus separately, putting a gain control on that? I feel like I am on the right path but don´t have a lot of confidence.

I have been looking for rock and metal templates on the web like a maniac. But could´t find any. I am really not interested in the different plugin settings since everybody is using so many different things. But I am sure there is sort of a goto way of starting out a mix. How things are set up, where compressors usually go etc. It would help to look at something like that. If somebody knows a youtube video or where to download a project that would help.

I also read about relative mixing but don´t really know what to think of it. Some people say to set up a clear bass and then eq and pan everything around it Some people say to get the drums to the right level and then set up all other instruments. I feel like trying to set the kick to my liking and then treat everything in the mix as a different instrument, including the remaining parts of the drum kit. What do you recommend?

Other than that, here are some screen caps of what I have so far. All I am trying to do right now is to get the guitars, drums and bass to take their space without getting in the way of each other... so I only did some basic panning and eq so far.

Thanks for any hints and pointers you can give me!

Any advise to clean up and beef up any of the parts will be welcome too. And please if there is any place you guys know to look at someone else's work and understand what principles they are considering would really help. I have been reading a lot but haven´t had the eureka moment with this stuff yet.

I was trying to get an opeth kind of tone for big chords but it is not working all that well.







View attachment outok.mp3.zip

 

[Enselmis]

I think you may have slightly misinterpreted the part about gain being at -18db. That's not to say it isn't true, but the goal isn't to get all your parts there and then ignore the faders like how it appears in your screenshots. What you're trying to do is adjust the volume on your preamps and/or DI's so you're sitting at about -18db on the way in. These days even -18db is more than enough since our noise floors in our daws are pretty well nonexistent.

Once you've got everything around there on the way in, you can start mixing comfortably. I like to pull all the faders all the way down and then bring things in one piece at a time. I start with the kick and snare and bass guitar usually because they often end up determining the balance of the whole mix. I get the kick to a reasonable level with the fader so there's plenty of headroom and it's nowhere near the red, balance the snare with that and then start bringing in other things. Unless you're really overpowering the kick or snare with other elements, nothing else should clip.

Also worth noting, I'd much sooner bring down the faders than hack the peaks of the guitars off with a limiter. It isn't going to do you any favours, that's for sure.

I'd also say that as far as recipes go for balancing the levels in your mix, use reference tracks! Bring them right into your daw on a separate track and match the level with the track you're working on using clip gain, then A/B between them. A reference track is like a recipe except it's already cooked. Every time you listen to it you get to have a bite and try to figure out what it is you're tasting. Look for specific things each time you switch. The balance between to elements or the frequency range one instrument covers in that track compared to yours.

 

[neurosis]

I think you may have slightly misinterpreted the part about gain being at -18db. That's not to say it isn't true, but the goal isn't to get all your parts there and then ignore the faders like how it appears in your screenshots. What you're trying to do is adjust the volume on your preamps and/or DI's so you're sitting at about -18db on the way in. These days even -18db is more than enough since our noise floors in our daws are pretty well nonexistent.

Thanks a ton for the extensive reply!

At the moment the only two instruments that are real in there are bass and guitar. The way I recorded them was using an Apogee ONE. I strum and palm mute looking at the meter on the interface and when it looks like it´s going into read I dial it back a bunch until it feels safe (looks like it won´t clip anymore).

Then In Logic I did the gain plugin that comes with logic to bring the track down by 18dB like I mentioned. I thought that´s how you do it. So it´s actually at the interface where it has to mark -18dB at the dial? I always thought you need to shoot for getting the max of the virgin tone on the guitar going in so you can then subtract. Sort of like with photography or video where you want your files to contain the highest amount of data across the board in order to have a rich foundation to work from.

With the bass I did exactly the same. Play and adjust the input on the interface before clipping. Then bring the track down to -18dB

The drums already come with slight adjustments but I decided to bring them down on that sub-mix stack to part from the same headroom I was reserving not he other instruments. Does that make sense?

Once you've got everything around there on the way in, you can start mixing comfortably. I like to pull all the faders all the way down and then bring things in one piece at a time. I start with the kick and snare and bass guitar usually because they often end up determining the balance of the whole mix. I get the kick to a reasonable level with the fader so there's plenty of headroom and it's nowhere near the red, balance the snare with that and then start bringing in other things. Unless you're really overpowering the kick or snare with other elements, nothing else should clip.

This sounds like a great way to do it, especially since that way you don´t get lost in the mish mash that´s on there with everything pending panning. I´ll try this for sure. Thanks!

Also worth noting, I'd much sooner bring down the faders than hack the peaks of the guitars off with a limiter. It isn't going to do you any favours, that's for sure.

You know... I took that road because I read somewhere that it´s a good way to squash the wall of guitars against the mix. In another forum somebody recommended this in an older thread, saying that it was a way to avoid losing the thumb you get from saturating and compressing rhythm guitar busses. Taking down the levels was making the guitars weaker I guess. I am still having trouble adjusting between what I am used to hearing in a room and what recorded distorted guitar sounds like.

I'd also say that as far as recipes go for balancing the levels in your mix, use reference tracks! Bring them right into your daw on a separate track and match the level with the track you're working on using clip gain, then A/B between them. A reference track is like a recipe except it's already cooked. Every time you listen to it you get to have a bite and try to figure out what it is you're tasting. Look for specific things each time you switch. The balance between to elements or the frequency range one instrument covers in that track compared to yours.

I suppose you do this comparing the eq on the reference track with where the elements in your mix would sit? I brought in a chunk of an Opeth Song a while back but I could´t figure out what I was doing. My mix was obviously lower ad theirs sounded louder and with more clarity and punch. So that´s what I was reading on and looking around everybody talked about layering guitars with lower gain settings and then doing compression and saturation on top of them. Or maybe I misunderstood.

I will start looking at this. I am just a little confused about what you mentioned about the levels at the interface, preamp or other input/converter device...

 

[neurosis]

Also. Just checked and my raw guitar tracks with nothing on them and track level at the default 0 are peaking at Orange 2.2!!!

When I adjusted input on my apogee one it was staying in the green/yellow. I hear no artifacts and correct me if I am wrong but this looked like despite the indicators on the interface the input levels are indeed overshooting. WTF!

Can I work with this or should I just rerecord? Considering that I am still learning and all...

 

[markerece]

Wow you are really asking some questions that require some very lengthy answers considering how broad the scope is.

to start off:

For example, my summing stack with the overdriven guitars was going close to red (albeit sounding really ballsy) so I put a limiter on it set to -5dB.

Going into the red isn't a very good thing. You normally want to be in the green. This is for headroom's sake and some plugins actually function on certain assumed dBfs values. If you're too high, the plugin won't sound like it should. In response to the limiter, I don't think it's a very good idea. Distorted guitars are actually already very compressed. You're already getting a block of sound. If you limit it, unless it's VERY VERY slight, you'll probably be getting odd saturation.

My first lesson was put gain -18dB on every track to allow some headroom for later.

-18dbfs is actually an RMS related issue. RMS is root mean square of the value of the signal. Peak, however, will be much higher depending on the material and instrument.

I have been looking for rock and metal templates on the web like a maniac. But could´t find any.

You won't find any good ones. This is because mixing is conditional. By conditional I mean, "IF x, THEN y"

IF my guitars are too present, THEN I cut 1k
IF my guitars are too present, THEN I lower faders
IF my guitars are too present, THEN I need to ride my bass fader up
IF my guitars are too present, THEN my parallel compressed drum fader isn't high enough.

The hard part about mixing is knowing what consequent is necessary.

I've been considering recording some sort of video to upload to youtube to present some ideas about mixing and one of my main points is this:

mixing is mostly "Tone in time". What I mean by this is that there is a tone in time that you need to adjust for everything in the time frame of your attack and sustain.

For example, if you use eq, then it changes the tone the entire time the instrument is heard. However, lets say you have a snare tone and you cut 500Hz by like a million dB. Sure, it makes the snare sound tonally better (kinda), but a lot of the sustain of a snare is around that area. If you cut it too much, all you're gonna hear is that odd 2-5kHz click and the 250Hz thump (depending on your snare) and it's gonna sound short as hell.

Apply this when you're listening to. If you hear a very well mixed song ask yourself about the tone in time.

How much can I hear the attack of the drums/bass/guitar in comparison to the other 2 instruments?
How much can I hear the sustain and release of the drums/bass/guitar in comparison to the other 2 instruments?

Why? is it compression, eq, or the fader is just higher?

Then, apply that to your mix.

 

[neurosis]

Wow you are really asking some questions that require some very lengthy answers considering how broad the scope is.

to start off:



Going into the red isn't a very good thing. You normally want to be in the green. This is for headroom's sake and some plugins actually function on certain assumed dBfs values. If you're too high, the plugin won't sound like it should. In response to the limiter, I don't think it's a very good idea. Distorted guitars are actually already very compressed. You're already getting a block of sound. If you limit it, unless it's VERY VERY slight, you'll probably be getting odd saturation.



-18dbfs is actually an RMS related issue. RMS is root mean square of the value of the signal. Peak, however, will be much higher depending on the material and instrument.



You won't find any good ones. This is because mixing is conditional. By conditional I mean, "IF x, THEN y"

IF my guitars are too present, THEN I cut 1k
IF my guitars are too present, THEN I lower faders
IF my guitars are too present, THEN I need to ride my bass fader up
IF my guitars are too present, THEN my parallel compressed drum fader isn't high enough.

The hard part about mixing is knowing what consequent is necessary.

I've been considering recording some sort of video to upload to youtube to present some ideas about mixing and one of my main points is this:

mixing is mostly "Tone in time". What I mean by this is that there is a tone in time that you need to adjust for everything in the time frame of your attack and sustain.

For example, if you use eq, then it changes the tone the entire time the instrument is heard. However, lets say you have a snare tone and you cut 500Hz by like a million dB. Sure, it makes the snare sound tonally better (kinda), but a lot of the sustain of a snare is around that area. If you cut it too much, all you're gonna hear is that odd 2-5kHz click and the 250Hz thump (depending on your snare) and it's gonna sound short as hell.

Apply this when you're listening to. If you hear a very well mixed song ask yourself about the tone in time.

How much can I hear the attack of the drums/bass/guitar in comparison to the other 2 instruments?
How much can I hear the sustain and release of the drums/bass/guitar in comparison to the other 2 instruments?

Why? is it compression, eq, or the fader is just higher?

Then, apply that to your mix.

!!!!!!

I am going to rerecord this stuff and go read on a few things you two have pointed out.

But the idea of tone in time actually makes a lot of sense. When I was comparing mixing to image editing I think I was sort of pushing a similar idea, which is that all elements that make the final result have to be in balance and while you don´t want any particular thing to stick out (unless there is an intention behind it) all of them need to be recognizable on their own.

I still have a lot to learn, but your comments are really helping. I think the main task for the weekend will be to get the recording right, with good headroom and not too many tweaks if possible. Then from there I will lower the faders and go slide in each element until they sit where I want them, then after that eq, compress, etc where needed.

Thanks for the lengthy reply! Sorry I write so much but it´s a good way to convey what´s up. As you could see there´s a few things going through my mind at the moment.

One last thing though! If it is recommended to stay in the green why does it say in the manual for the apogee that it is best to have the input level to be just at the edge of spilling over into red? I recorded around orange just going by that.

 

[Enselmis]

Thanks a ton for the extensive reply!

At the moment the only two instruments that are real in there are bass and guitar. The way I recorded them was using an Apogee ONE. I strum and palm mute looking at the meter on the interface and when it looks like it´s going into read I dial it back a bunch until it feels safe (looks like it won´t clip anymore).

Then In Logic I did the gain plugin that comes with logic to bring the track down by 18dB like I mentioned. I thought that´s how you do it. So it´s actually at the interface where it has to mark -18dB at the dial? I always thought you need to shoot for getting the max of the virgin tone on the guitar going in so you can then subtract. Sort of like with photography or video where you want your files to contain the highest amount of data across the board in order to have a rich foundation to work from.

Once it's in the box, or inside your computer, you can do whatever you want. Recording at -18db means just that: Recording. The signal hitting your conversion should be in the neighbourhood of -18db unless you've got some reason for that not to be the case, for example if you were recording to actual tape and wanted to slam it for some compression.

With the bass I did exactly the same. Play and adjust the input on the interface before clipping. Then bring the track down to -18dB

The drums already come with slight adjustments but I decided to bring them down on that sub-mix stack to part from the same headroom I was reserving not he other instruments. Does that make sense?

With the bass, again, that doesn't accomplish anything. Think about it this way. If it clips on the way in, it's been recorded that way. Once it's recorded it doesn't matter how you set the trim plugin or where you place the fader because the actual audio has already clipped and will clip every time, regardless of output volume. The people at toontrack who recorded the drums knew this so I wouldn't worry about there's. I'd set all the faders in whatever drum program you're using to 0 or whatever gives you a healthy signal and then send each one that you want to use to its own track in logic.


This sounds like a great way to do it, especially since that way you don´t get lost in the mish mash that´s on there with everything pending panning. I´ll try this for sure. Thanks!

You know... I took that road because I read somewhere that it´s a good way to squash the wall of guitars against the mix. In another forum somebody recommended this in an older thread, saying that it was a way to avoid losing the thumb you get from saturating and compressing rhythm guitar busses. Taking down the levels was making the guitars weaker I guess. I am still having trouble adjusting between what I am used to hearing in a room and what recorded distorted guitar sounds like.

In practice, probably avoid limiting things unless you've got a reason to do so. That's not to say there aren't good reasons but I'd recommend reading up about limiters before defaulting to using one. In almost all cases of something being too loud, it's probably best just to pull the fader down a bit.

I suppose you do this comparing the eq on the reference track with where the elements in your mix would sit? I brought in a chunk of an Opeth Song a while back but I could´t figure out what I was doing. My mix was obviously lower ad theirs sounded louder and with more clarity and punch. So that´s what I was reading on and looking around everybody talked about layering guitars with lower gain settings and then doing compression and saturation on top of them. Or maybe I misunderstood.

I will start looking at this. I am just a little confused about what you mentioned about the levels at the interface, preamp or other input/converter device...

Not just EQ. Compare anything you can possibly think of. From the big general things to the little tiny minutiae. That's how you learn and get better. Compare absolutely everything. How long is the reverb tail on the vocals or drums or guitars? Is there a reverb at all? How dynamic is an instrument? How low does it extend? Volume wise, how does it relate to a different instrument, and how do those 2 instruments together relate to another? EQ is just one aspect of a mix. Most important part is getting the reference track volume to be as close as possible to your own. That means either pulling the track gain down until the meters and your ears tell you they're as close as you can make them.