Harley Benton Headless Prototypes

[spudmunkey]

would love Fender to do the same to them over the "Delos" model.

Guys ego knows no bounds.

The issue is that Fender doesnt have legal standing. Like Gibson, they waited too long to protect their IP. Kiesel is doing noting outside of what they are allowed to do, in this regard. There's a huge loophole, and like many, are exploiting it.

 

[Hollowway]

The issue is that Fender doesnt have legal standing. Like Gibson, they waited too long to protect their IP. Kiesel is doing noting outside of what they are allowed to do, in this regard. There's a huge loophole, and like many, are exploiting it.

Yeah, it’s legal, but just seems poor form to make the argument for allowing a copy (Gibson) and then saying copies aren’t allowed (HB). It’s legal, and happens a lot in business (that’s what lawyers are for) but to me a business should be careful not just to work within legal boundaries but also within the ethical guidelines that are relevant to its customers. I’m a huge fan of protecting IP in this industry, but I’m not a fan of Jeff trying to have it both ways.

 

[I play music]

The issue is that Fender doesnt have legal standing. Like Gibson, they waited too long to protect their IP. Kiesel is doing noting outside of what they are allowed to do, in this regard. There's a huge loophole, and like many, are exploiting it.

What can they actually do? Just stop Thomann from shipping Dullahans to the US or do they actually have valid claims to stop this even in Europe?

 

[spudmunkey]

What can they actually do? Just stop Thomann from shipping Dullahans to the US or do they actually have valid claims to stop this even in Europe?

I'm sure there's some agreement between US and UK and Europe in terms of intellectual property, but don't know for sure.

 

[lewis]

If I were thomann I would fight them. They are big enough too.

So sick of the attitudes of some of the businesses.

Guitar world is getting ruined by these greedy corporate types.
How is Kiesel honestly threatened by in house made in Asia cheap guitars from Thomann?.

Pathetic. He is only doing it to stroke his own ego rather than because they are a genuine threat to his business.

 

[spudmunkey]

Pathetic. He is only doing it to stroke his own ego rather than because they are a genuine threat to his business.

Gibson and Fender both lost lawsuits for their IP because they didnt defend it for too long. If Kiesel let it go, they would end up in the same place as Kiesel/Fender. I dont think anyone would be made at Ibanez, Abasi, etc for protecting their designs.

 

[lewis]

copyrighting a body shape for a guitar is as stupid as someone trying to s

Gibson and Fender both lost lawsuits for their IP because they didnt defend it for too long. If Kiesel let it go, they would end up in the same place as Kiesel/Fender. I dont think anyone would be made at Ibanez, Abasi, etc for protecting their designs.

If kiesel let it go, what bearing would it have over his sales?

Honest question because i genuinely believe it would make absolutely no difference whatsoever.
if you are a kiesel customer and saving for another kiesel - and then everyone started offering Vaders for example, you are still going to just buy a Kiesel Vader.

so to be getting your panties in a bunch over a cheap inhouse brand guitar at Thomann with much shittttter specs etc is hilarious and frustrating in equal measures.
I was never going to be a Kiesel customer because of money - then over the years their attitude -
I have owned plenty of HB guitars and even have one now currently. There are going to be far more people who cant afford a custom shop guitar so like to rely on these cheaper brands for their hobby - and now thats getting ruined by "big time charlie from big USA company"

 

[Wolfhorsky]

If I were thomann I would fight them. They are big enough too.

So sick of the attitudes of some of the businesses.

Guitar world is getting ruined by these greedy corporate types.
How is Kiesel honestly threatened by in house made in Asia cheap guitars from Thomann?.

Pathetic. He is only doing it to stroke his own ego rather than because they are a genuine threat to his business.

Maybe He fears the inevitable: the comparison of His guitars and HB with the conclusion that MIC HB guitar is not that much worse and costs much less and can be treated as a mod platform.

 

[laxu]

copyrighting a body shape for a guitar is as stupid as someone trying to s

If kiesel let it go, what bearing would it have over his sales?

Honest question because i genuinely believe it would make absolutely no difference whatsoever.
if you are a kiesel customer and saving for another kiesel - and then everyone started offering Vaders for example, you are still going to just buy a Kiesel Vader.

so to be getting your panties in a bunch over a cheap inhouse brand guitar at Thomann with much shittttter specs etc is hilarious and frustrating in equal measures.
I was never going to be a Kiesel customer because of money - then over the years their attitude -
I have owned plenty of HB guitars and even have one now currently. There are going to be far more people who cant afford a custom shop guitar so like to rely on these cheaper brands for their hobby - and now thats getting ruined by "big time charlie from big USA company"

It can lead to another brand making a higher end copy of the design and thus affecting their sales. From a legal point of view it's better to try to defend your designs and trademarks than to let it be. Kiesel is not directly worried about some cheapo from Thomann, it's worried that the precedent is there to let others copy it too. You can look at Fender and Gibson for where that has led them as there are plenty of alternatives for those.

If you look at Rickenbacker, there are almost no copies of them on the market and that's because they are extremely vigilant about this. You want a Rickenbacker, you buy a Rickenbacker rather than one of the tens of copies.

 

[lewis]

It can lead to another brand making a higher end copy of the design and thus affecting their sales. From a legal point of view it's better to try to defend your designs and trademarks than to let it be. Kiesel is not directly worried about some cheapo from Thomann, it's worried that the precedent is there to let others copy it too. You can look at Fender and Gibson for where that has led them as there are plenty of alternatives for those.

If you look at Rickenbacker, there are almost no copies of them on the market and that's because they are extremely vigilant about this. You want a Rickenbacker, you buy a Rickenbacker rather than one of the tens of copies.

and on the point of Fender and Gibson.

Fender and Gibson customers are and were only ever going to buy their strats/Les Pauls from these companies.

How many people who were fender fan boiiis, then started buying Kiesel delos's instead?
I get what you are saying but I just dont believe it effects the sales. If you are a customer of a company and like their products - you are just going to stay on that path regardless of what others are doing/copying

 

[Wolfhorsky]

@laxu and @lewis You are both right and have good arguments. Cool discussion. I like the ethics and idea of protecting IP, but Kiesel is using someones else's designs, modify them and then TM them. That's unethical and just being a hypocrite. My

 

[lewis]

@laxu and @lewis You are both right and have good arguments. Cool discussion. I like the ethics and idea of protecting IP, but Kiesel is using someones else's designs, modify them and then TM them. That's unethical and just being a hypocrite. My

Haha thanks.

Its refreshing we can have mature and sensible discussion on here about subjects like this too without it descending into a farce.

 

[laxu]

@laxu and @lewis You are both right and have good arguments. Cool discussion. I like the ethics and idea of protecting IP, but Kiesel is using someones else's designs, modify them and then TM them. That's unethical and just being a hypocrite. My

What is legal in terms of laws and morally or ethically right are often not the same thing. In IP protection things only the legal questions matter, not whether a Kiesel design is ultimately based on a Strat like most electric guitars.

 

[laxu]

and on the point of Fender and Gibson.

Fender and Gibson customers are and were only ever going to buy their strats/Les Pauls from these companies.

How many people who were fender fan boiiis, then started buying Kiesel delos's instead?
I get what you are saying but I just dont believe it effects the sales. If you are a customer of a company and like their products - you are just going to stay on that path regardless of what others are doing/copying

Probably the same people who instead bought say a Japanese copy instead of a lower end Gibson or the people who bought a Suhr or PRS Silver Sky instead of a Fender Strat. They had these options to choose from and I think most people would entertain alternatives if they perceive them to be better for whatever reason (lower cost, perceive they are better than Fender/Gibson quality etc). You are right that there will always be hardcore fans that will not entertain anything different. That probably applies to Kiesel as well but I would say they are a much smaller group than those willing to shop around.

 

[Boojakki]

Also, I think if there weren't copies of Fenders & Gibsons designs to begin with and the continuous applying of modern twists (24 frets, 7-strings, Floyds, high gain pu's aso.) to bring those designs to higher usability (and make them more fun) for modern players/techniques, we still would be stuck in ye olde 50's guitar designs ... There is no need to change to contemporary designs, when there is no competition...

 

[AltecGreen]

For those interested, this is the design patent Kiesel was awarded for the Osiris. It's good for 15 years.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/D844694.pdf

 

[hamster]

I think that Thomann will solve this conflict easily : They will have the body chamfer of the next Duhallan batch slightly modified, and they will put a big Harley Benton logo on the guitar. End of story.

PS : Also, why didn't they put a clearly identifiable Harley Benton logo on the first generation of Duhallan guitars ?

 

[lewis]

I think that Thomann will solve this conflict easily : They will have the body chamfer of the next Duhallan batch slightly modified, and they will put a big Harley Benton logo on the guitar. End of story.

PS : Also, why didn't they put a clearly identifiable Harley Benton logo on the first generation of Duhallan guitars ?

they even used Ibanez branded neck plates on the original run of Dullahans HAHA (not joking - they spun them and tried to paint over the stamped Ibanez logo in the plate)

 

[hamster]

God I did not know this ! LMAO ! It is consistent with the numerous rumors that say that the Indonesian HB guitars are mainly produced at the Cort Jawa-Timur factory, in Indonesia, in which there is a special facility dedicated to the production of Ibanez standard & premium models !

 

[I play music]

If you look at Rickenbacker, there are almost no copies of them on the market and that's because they are extremely vigilant about this. You want a Rickenbacker, you buy a Rickenbacker rather than one of the tens of copies.

rofl