Harmonic Minor...

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Mr. Big Noodles

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Your thread was very helpful, by the way. I struggle to explain modality to people, but can tell it when I see it. You wrote it out beautifully. A jazzy approach, but entirely in the vein of true modal music. It's great to have such knowledged people on this forum like you and TonalArchitect.
 

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TonalArchitect

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Yeah, there are perhaps six music theory classes in my catalog. The rest is instrument training, bands, appreciation (what the hell) and history, not forgetting the ubiquitous applied music classes. Here's the one that really gets me:

Music 191-
Music Laboratory For Listening - 0.50 UNITS Rpt 3

Prerequisite: None. Open entry/Open exit. Credit/No Credit.
Students use Listening Library materials and equipment to do listening assignments from Music Appreciation, History, and Musical Theater Repetoire classes or listen to music of their own choosing.


:lol:
Why would you pay for that?

I’m taking Music Appreciation as an elective! I wanted something fun among my other general ed stuff. ’Tis my first year, ya know?

Wait, you have to pay for something like that? Okay, what does open entry/exit mean? And it says no credit, but what are “Units?”


Yep, Advanced Music Theory Lab II sounds like Musicianship 1. Although, ear training is a semi-useful skill at the very least. The people coming out of those classes, though, from what I've seen, really know what the they're doing. Try singing a song and immediately know every note in the melody.


I wish I had a well-trained ear or perfect pitch, but I don’t want to work at it because that doesn’t really impede my composing, and I don’t transcribe much or play by ear. So yeah, basically it’s an awesome skill that I would enjoy having but don't want to work for it because I can live without it.

Well, if you ever need help with a concept, I'll try disseminating whatever I'm learning into this forum whenever it's brought up. Truth is that music theory classes can move pretty slowly because some concepts are so hard for people to grasp. It's all cumulative, too. If you have a major scale, you can figure out harmonies, and if you have harmonies, you can figure out modulation. If you can figure out modulation, you have half of Western music under your thumb. I think more people have problems with rhythmic subdivisions, and more likely than not, the majority of your waking life as a music student will be occupied with the struggle for literacy.

I would gladly accept your help with concepts! But since, I’m not in any real music classes, I don’t know if I’ll get introduced to many new things, which makes me kinda sad. :( But if you learn interesting things in your classes, please share them like you said (or, “I’m too cheap to take the damn classes myself, so tell me stuff.” :D) Also sharing and breaking down some of that knowledge could really be an excellent addition to these boards.

It's odd to me that people have difficulty with subdivisions, since they're "divide by two" until you get to irrational rhythms and compound meter, which is a lazy-ass excuse/illusion which does away with writing triplet brackets all the time. Although I will say that viewing a two against three polyrhythm is so much easier to understand when written in 6/8, since there are no brackets or markings, just even pulses.

No problem. It's also the same reason Lydian Dominant, a mode of... something or other, is called Dominant.

I believe that it is the fourth mode of Melodic Minor. Dear God that confused me when I first learned that. I wondered "why isn't it in Harmonic Minor; Phrygian Dominant is?!?!?!?!"


Truth be told, I see the way a lot of you are classifying these scales and while it's theoretically correct, I think it's selling the scales a bit short. If you want you can check out my guide to modes I posted in this forum a while back, but when you're playing something in Phrygian Dominant, you're not thinking of it's relation to Harmonic Minor, are you? It's the fifth mode, but aside from that E Phrygian Dominant has no relation to A Harmonic minor from a tonality standpoint.

I'm trying not to blatantly advertise that post I made :rofl: but in that thread I discuss how a lot of the time modes are explained relatively: C ionian is to D dorian is to E phrygian, etc. The scales that share the same notes, and are modes of each other, are categorized together. But I find a more practical approach is to view the parallel modes. C ionian is to C dorian is to C phrygian. They don't have the same notes, but they have similar tonalities, at least in the sense that they're in "C" keys.

Truth be told, a lot of theory doesn't conform to this. The modes of C aren't all in the key of C, theoretically. But what I'm saying is, over a C major chord you can't play D dorian, or E phrygian. Because they have the same notes as C major, so over the backing chord they are C major. But you can play C lydian. Or C mixolydian. Or C phrygian dominant. And those have different tonalities, and different notes, but are not altogether dissonant.

It's a more modern way of looking at it, rather than classical harmony.

EDIT: Also, because I wanna join in on the conversation and be one of the "cool kids" :lol:...

I'm taking my first formal theory class next year (senior year of high school). It's advanced placement, so if I pass a test at the end of the year I'm eligible for college credits in music. I've taken guitar classes with my guitar teacher at the high school, but in class we never learn any theory. My teacher's always cool to ask about stuff, though, to the point where last year, I would routinely duck into his class throughout the day and ask questions. Like "Well, if I wanted to play dorian... what's a Dorian progression look like?" He helped me out a lot, but I had to get started on my own, I guess.

What I really wanna do is learn to sight-read/write music. Im hoping theory class will help me with that, because even though I already know the concepts it's practice that I need.


That’s a nice long post HammerAndSickle, I see you’ve been bearing witness to that figure’s gaze more than usual. But in seriousness I agree, your view of modes is much more practical.

I like your way of viewing modes as scales derived from parent scales. An excellent thread. :yesway:

And if by “cool kids” you mean us music nerds, then yes, by all means, join the conversation!

About sight reading, I may start a thread on that soon (wondering if it's worth it in some cases).

It's great to have such knowledged people on this forum like you and TonalArchitect.

Thank you for considering us knowledgeable, but don’t forget that you are an intelligent poster who knows his stuff. :agreed:
 

Mr. Big Noodles

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Units and credits are synonymous. The class, you pay ten bucks for to go into a room in the music building and listen to music. You can leave whenever you like or not go at all. You could also do the exact same thing in the exact same room and not pay for it.

While I seem like a theory goblin, I really do have a minimal understanding. I just talk a lot.
 
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soldierkahn

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circle-o-fifths.jpg

It's hard to get a good one of these. As you see, the key names are listed all around the circle, ordered in the number of accidentals they have. If you go clockwise, every tonic is a fifth away from the last one, hence the name. On the inside of the circle are the relative minor keys of those same major scales. Thus, the relative minor of C major is A minor, and F major is D minor, and so on.

Basically, this circle tells you how many sharps or flats are in a key, what the tonic of that key is, and if you know the order, which notes are sharp and which are flat. In a sharp key, this is the order that the notes are sharpened: FCGDAEB
In a flat key, it goes backwards: BEADGCF

Thus, in the key of G, there will be one sharp, which will fall on the first note in the sharpening sequence, F. The scale of G major is G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G. Its relative minor is E minor, E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E. In the key of A, we add
two more sharps on, because it is two more keys away: A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A.

For flat keys, it works just the same, but the direction you're going in is opposite. F has one flat: F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F. Ab has four: Ab-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-G-Ab

It's easy to find the harmonic minor of any given key, just check the natural minor, say, A minor (whose relative major is C major, which has no sharps or flats, making this easier), and raise the seventh scale degree a half step. So, if you have A minor, A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A, and you want A harmonic minor, take that G and sharpen it: A-B-C-D-E-F-G#-A.

Now, I hardly see this on these circles, but I like doing it, because it makes my life easier. You can copy this diagram, and replace those annoying key signatures and staff lines with numbers along the rim of the circle, like this one:
fg0-7645-7838-3_1102-01.jpg

(The reason I didn't use this one is because it doesn't have relative minor keys on it.)
Copy those relative minors and put them next to those sharp/flat signs, so you know which key they correspond to. It should also be noted that the second circle has the enharmonic keys on it: Cb/B, Gb/F#, and Db/C#. They're the same, but they have different "spellings".
Compare C#: C#-D#-E#-F#-G#-A#-B#-C#
to Db: Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-C-Db
If you play them on piano, you'll see that they are the same exact key.


Now, the useful part: figure out the fifth of each minor key, and put that somewhere in the circle where you can tell its relation. You can do this by taking the triad construction of the minor key's tonic chord, and looking at what the fifth is. For Ami, ACE, for example, the fifth will be E. So, if you're playing A harmonic minor, and you want to be metal, you look at your circle of fifths, see that your phrygian dominant is going to be E, and you whip out your phrygian dominant shape, and slide it up to E.


Now that I've covered that, here is the reason why it's called phrygian dominant: in the major scale, the third mode is called the phrygian mode. In the scale of C major, the phrygian mode is E phrygian. When you go to the relative minor, this then becomes the fifth mode of the minor scale. Now, going back to what I was saying pages ago about that V-i resolution being stronger than a v-i resolution, that has a play in how this mode is named in the harmonic minor. Because V resolves better to I (or i) than any other chord in a diatonic scale, it is called the dominant chord. It dominates, I guess. That added resolution that harmonic minor gives to its fifth chord makes it dominant. (This last part may be bullshit, the name might not be different for a v chord, somebody call me on that if so.)



oh god please dont hate me for asking this. while i do understand what youre sayin here:

"Now, the useful part: figure out the fifth of each minor key, and put that somewhere in the circle where you can tell its relation. You can do this by taking the triad construction of the minor key's tonic chord, and looking at what the fifth is. For Ami, ACE, for example, the fifth will be E. So, if you're playing A harmonic minor, and you want to be metal, you look at your circle of fifths, see that your phrygian dominant is going to be E, and you whip out your phrygian dominant shape, and slide it up to E."

so lets just say for example, that im playing a song that is in the key of D. So since this song is in the key of D, and I want it to be tonally minor, i would go and check out D minor's triad ( D F A ). I would extract from that D's 5th, A.

and right there is where you lost me. so can you sort of re-iterate what you mean? Im sorry, i hate to ask so many questions, but im nowhere near where i need to be theory wise.
 

TonalArchitect

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Never hesitate to ask questions. It's no burden to us. Heck, I enjoy helping if I can. You never ask, you never learn.

Let's go with your example and use the key of D minor.

Now what I believe he's saying is that if you're playing in harmonic minor, you take the fifth of the root (so A if you're in D, just like you said), then that is the name of the phrygian dominant that you use.

That sounded awful, so here's the easy way.

To figure out what phrygian dominant shape you use, take the fifth of the harmonic minor scale you're playing, and that's it.

So D harmonic minor, then use A Phrygian dominant.

Let's say you're in C. Its fifth is G.

So C harmonic minor, then use G phrygian dominant.

He just showed you another way of telling you about phrygian dominant. You know it's the fifth mode, so go up a fifth from the root of the harmonic minor scale you're using, and then that's the root of its fifth mode. If I understood it, he said the same thing.
 

Mr. Big Noodles

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In the key of D minor, your phrygian dominant is going to be rooted on A. It's the fifth of whatever harmonic minor key you're in, if it's easier that way.
 

soldierkahn

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much easier. now, to swing ALLLLL this theory back to my original questions.

How does one take this knowledge and apply appropriately within metal, without tryin to sound like Vai? Something simple that has a heavy hitting base to it, with Arabic flavorings for everyone.....

like my approach for writing is that ill sit down and start feeling a rhythmn out, then bust out the notebook of my D Harmonic Minor modes, and pick one out thats close to what im trying to play. Then I try to figure out what the base key im writing ( 99% of the time its D as im in Drop D and play my low D a LOT!), so on and so forth. is this a good habit to be in?
 

Mr. Big Noodles

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So long as you're playing around a D harm. minor progression, it'll be tonally centered on D, which is fine, it'll sound like you're in D, which, I think, is what you want.
 

TonalArchitect

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I have mulled over what you have said for a while, but I'm still not entirely sure of what to say.

By not sounding like Vai, do you mean that you are thinking of applying the harmonic minor scale to rhythm playing as opposed to lead?

I take it that you essentially want to play metal which includes that wonderfully exotic Arabic sound in it?

Without getting too deep into composition and such, I would say that you already have all the knowledge that you need. If your main concern is infusing that sound into metal, then treat it no differently than the natural minor scale, just keep in mind that the exoticism of the scale comes from the interaction of the fifth, sixth, seventh, and tonic degrees.

If you want to talk about songwriting and composition, then that's a whole new kettle of fish. I wrote a big, rambling post of doom about it in the thread "Building a Sense of Melody." But that post by no means covered every aspect of it.

If you do want to talk about composition, I would be glad to write many a post on the subject :D, but it might be best to start a new thread.

I would like to leave you with two things. First about composition: There are some other approaches that you might find interesting, perhaps even helpful. I could give you some of them, but remember, the creative process is very personal, and if something works for you, then go with it. I would try not to say that one way is "bad" or "wrong" or that one approach is inherently superior to another.

Second, about the D harmonic minor scale, or any scale for that matter. It is far better to learn the scale as it appears over the entire fretboard. If you're using those evil little blocks, be sure to connect them!

Even better, learn every note on the guitar. I know it's time consuming, but you don't have to make an epic project out of it and learn them in three days. Take it a step at a time. If you play by tab, don't think sixth fret, first string, think Bb. Assuming it's in standard. This process might take years, but I believe that it is beneficial and completely worth it.

But then again, no one's forcing you. Do what you want; music's supposed to be fun, so do what feels right.

And if you want to ask about songwriting and composition, create a new thread. I'd be glad to contribute as I am able.
 

soldierkahn

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I have mulled over what you have said for a while, but I'm still not entirely sure of what to say.

By not sounding like Vai, do you mean that you are thinking of applying the harmonic minor scale to rhythm playing as opposed to lead?

I take it that you essentially want to play metal which includes that wonderfully exotic Arabic sound in it?

yet again you nail it on the head. Im looking to apply the Harmonic Minor scale to Rhythm playing as opposed to lead for right now. ill try to think of some composition questions and then start a new thread for us to talk about it in there, so thx!
 

SteveDendura

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Wow. There are many pages of brillant questions and answers here. I certainly do not have the training Schecter and Tonal have, but the Harmonic Minor (especially the 5th mode) and Hungarian Minor have made a world of difference in my writing.

Now you would like to know how to apply the scale to your rythmn? I use a progression sometimes that would follow that 5th mode. Root-b2nd-natural3. So try D-Eb-Gb. Then try adding other tones around that. And integrate fills that will add that raised 7th.

So if you play D-Eb-Gb (and I'm sure you probably have), you're playing the 5th mode of G harmonic minor (which you learned from Schecter and Tonal earlier), Your 7th will be an F#.

starting on that F# hammer on to G / pull off to F# then play Eb-D-Eb-F#-G-A. Something like that has the Egyptian sound. Another really cool thing to do is find all the half steps in the scale and just play those in different combinations. Like A-Bb, D-Eb, F#-G, and climbing up.


e---------------------------5- Just play around doing
b------------------------7-8-- these half step intervals.
G---------------------7-8----- Try some as Chord progressions
D-------------4-5-7-8--------- as well.
A---------5-6-----------------
D------7-8--------------------


As far as chords and stuff go there's really not an actual "chord" that sounds Egyptian. But if you build chords out of the scale you can find cool Diminished ones that can really help shape the whole riff.

Hope this helps

Steve Wethy
 

SteveDendura

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Dude, if that's something where you can upload an audio track and watch it play the scored music, that'd be so awesome:hbang:. I know it's a pain for me to try to score music and I write so many harmony parts or rythmn/lead parts it'd be really cool to see all that as you hear it. It'd also help others to hear the "rythmn" of the riffs and melodies.
 

TonalArchitect

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:confused:

I might be missing something, but the composition thread is a hypothetical thing that SoldierKhan would make if he had questions about the songwriting process, which was an element of this thread which I feel cannot be addressed as something particular to the Harmonic minor scale.

You want to see music as your composition plays before you? Get Guitar Pro. I use it; it allows you to enter either tablature and standard notation (and it fills in the other), also, there is midi (or RSE--realistic sound engine) playback which can give you a fair approximation of how it will sound.

Also, someone should start more threads like this (or make the composition thread :D).
 

Mr. Big Noodles

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Well, if you're interested, there's a chart in my harmony text concerning diatonic progressions. We could rip that apart, and see if it makes for another close analysis thread.
 

TonalArchitect

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Well, why the hell not!


(Note that this is not an excuse to slack on your transcribing efforts. Back to work drone! ;))
 

Stuart

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Guitar pro would be great for this sort of thing. I think this would especially aid this sort of dissection.
 

SteveDendura

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:confused:

You want to see music as your composition plays before you? Get Guitar Pro. I use it; it allows you to enter either tablature and standard notation (and it fills in the other), also, there is midi (or RSE--realistic sound engine) playback which can give you a fair approximation of how it will sound.

Thanks I'll have to try that.
 
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