[HELP ME] Hard rock / alt metal tones from a Helix LT in the mix

[AwakenTheSkies]

Ughhh, I am frustrated, I'm sure I posted a thread like this before last year when my friends hired me to mix their death metal album

Anyway I'm trying to get high gain hard rock tones like these:





These tones come in many different flavors but you get what I mean

The thing is, the tones don't cut through or ring like I want them to. The tone is either dark, or it sounds like shit. If I crank the presence, the treble or pick a brighter impulse it just gets noisy. Today I tried reamping some tracks just with a MT-2 Metal Zone direct to an impulse and I had an easier time getting a tone from that, but it's a Metal Zone, so it has that buzz.
Seriously, I have impulses from pretty much every brand that has been making them in these last years, and I still can't get this right.

Please give me some tips, or send me some useful links. Am I fucked until I buy a real amp?

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

It would help to post clips of your songs

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

Okay then, I just uploaded a song for this, it's a full instrumental cover, my friend showed me this song and I really liked it so I made my own instrumental version.

https://soundcloud.com/vlad_kuzmenko_37/teardrop-bowl-full-instrumental-cover

I know the mix has it's flaws but well, I wasn't planning to release this, it's Helix LT 5150 + Mesa Oversized 57 IR. I keep trying other amps and combination but it never works, I always end up using the same old combination. It's very frustrating.

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Well for one this doesn't sound bad. If you want a brighter tone your first culprit would be the IRs.

IRs are the biggest part of the sound. If you start with those, you can pretty much make anything else work.

Explain what's in your signal chain and what you have going on, that also helps.

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

Well for one this doesn't sound bad. If you want a brighter tone your first culprit would be the IRs.

IRs are the biggest part of the sound. If you start with those, you can pretty much make anything else work.

Explain what's in your signal chain and what you have going on, that also helps.

For this song, it's PRS SE Tremonti Custom with Seymour Duncan Hot Rodded Set into the Helix LT, which is hooked by USB to the computer, I also use a Focusrite 2i4 to monitor the Helix but it's not really part of the chain, I switch between the Helix and the 2i4 for recording and mixing. The Helix patch itself is gone but it was most likely TS808 - 5150 - Mesa OS 57, it's the safest bet for heavy tones, and like I said, I struggle to make anything else work, it just doesn't sound as good.

About the IR, that's the thing I mentioned in the OP, if I picked an IR one position brighter the tone would've been unpleasant, it's not really the brightness. It's hard to explain, I am trying to get a growl-ring sound in the higher mids.

Listen to the powerchord after 0:50 when the first verse kicks in this song I'm linking, the growl is very prominent, it's like part bass but there's something going on with the high mids on the guitar, I can't get that.

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

A lot of that is in the bass. I think the main issue here might be getting the guitars and bass to blend in a way that gets what you're after. The bass in that song is full and has some breakup which helps the guitar a lot. That tone on it's own would probably be rather thin and grainy but with the bass it fills out the sound.

 

[DudeManBrother]

A lot of that chevelle thickness is coming from the bass. Try recording the guitar line from the D string of your bass, and bring it up in your guitar buss to thicken the low mids up. I’d also try low passing all the scratchy upper frequencies, and focus on a meaty semi-dark tone. You can send the guitars to a parallel aux track and using something like the Aphex Aural Exciter to get a nice crispy top end without all the harshness, and blend it in to taste.

EDIT: ninja’d

 

[Drew]

Yeah, another vote/comment/whatever for how much of that growl in the riff is coming from the bass. Beyond that, though, what are your guitar amp settings like here? The tone in the clip you shared sounds kind of washy and indistinct to me, in two ways. First, to my ears it sounds less like something missing in the upper mids, so much as a LOT of low mids in this, which is making the guitars sound a little indistinct. Second, it's always a little hard to pick this apart in a full mix, but it sounds like you're using a darker cab IR... but a VERY bright guitar amp tone. I don't know for a fact if Chevelle is using a Rectifier but that would be my guess listening to this, but while those amps DO have a lot of high end cut to them, their tone here doens't sound like the treble or presence is dialed up anywhere unusually high. Your tone meanwhile sounds like it's got a lot of high end dialed in at the amp, that the IR is backing off a little.

I've spent all of about three minutes plugged into various 5150s, real or otherwise, in my entire life, I think (I'm sure I've neglected the amp, but when I first tried one I quickly decided it was NOT the amp for me) but if you're not already set somewhere close to this, the Gothenburg "set everything to 6" approach might be a good starting point... even then, though, even without a boost that might be a little gainier, and probably a lot brighter, than the sort of sound you're looking for.

A final +1 to the high shelf/low pass, you can get pretty aggressive on guitars above 7-8khz and in a mix, not miss it at all.

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

Try recording the guitar line from the D string of your bass, and bring it up in your guitar buss to thicken the low mids up. I’d also try low passing all the scratchy upper frequencies, and focus on a meaty semi-dark tone. You can send the guitars to a parallel aux track and using something like the Aphex Aural Exciter to get a nice crispy top end without all the harshness, and blend it in to taste.

That's a good idea, I've never tried that before.

Yeah, another vote/comment/whatever for how much of that growl in the riff is coming from the bass. Beyond that, though, what are your guitar amp settings like here? The tone in the clip you shared sounds kind of washy and indistinct to me, in two ways. First, to my ears it sounds less like something missing in the upper mids, so much as a LOT of low mids in this, which is making the guitars sound a little indistinct. Second, it's always a little hard to pick this apart in a full mix, but it sounds like you're using a darker cab IR... but a VERY bright guitar amp tone. I don't know for a fact if Chevelle is using a Rectifier but that would be my guess listening to this, but while those amps DO have a lot of high end cut to them, their tone here doens't sound like the treble or presence is dialed up anywhere unusually high. Your tone meanwhile sounds like it's got a lot of high end dialed in at the amp, that the IR is backing off a little.

I've spent all of about three minutes plugged into various 5150s, real or otherwise, in my entire life, I think (I'm sure I've neglected the amp, but when I first tried one I quickly decided it was NOT the amp for me) but if you're not already set somewhere close to this, the Gothenburg "set everything to 6" approach might be a good starting point... even then, though, even without a boost that might be a little gainier, and probably a lot brighter, than the sort of sound you're looking for.

A final +1 to the high shelf/low pass, you can get pretty aggressive on guitars above 7-8khz and in a mix, not miss it at all.

Like I said the patch is gone, I think my settings were approximately;

TS808 - Gain 2 - Tone 4 - Level - 5-8
PV Panama - Gain 3-4 - Low 5, Mids 6-7, Treble 4,5, Presence - I'm not sure, might have been 6-7, Master - 4,7 (this is the sweet spot for me), Resonance - 5,5
IR - ML Sound Lab Mega Oversize - OS 57 C, my fav from the pack, it's not a dark impulse, it's brighter than the mixes included in the pack if using that as a reference, and brighter than many Ownhammer mixes by default.
Then for EQ in the DAW I just cut below 80-100Hz, cut above 8500kHz approx, cut 1-2db around 750hz and add 0,5-1db at 5000kHz.

Chevelle used Mesa Mark IV or Mark V AFAIK, but I find those amps very hard to use even in the Helix, 2 gain knobs, that built in EQ, too many things. I try to play it as safe as possible.

I will try the all 6 thing, I like that configuration on the Bogner Uberschall model in the Helix, except for the Master control, but yeah, depending on the amp I should use less gain.

 

[DudeManBrother]

I should add that you’ll want to use brand new strings when you’re ready to record the actual tracks. Clean, useable top end comes from fresh strings. Less gain is always preferable. You will likely end up adding saturation during the mixing process, and lower gain allows you some room to shape.

 

[budda]

I like cutting 120hz at 18db/oct and 6.5k at 12db/oct but im not doing it professionally . That may help tidy up the guitars a bit. Also run it through an eq analyzer and see where your spikes are, then see if that matches bass drums and vocals at all. Then decide who gets the space.

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

One more question, any of you guys have any info on blending amps? How would one go about that? Do I need to triple or quad track for that? Like for example two guitars panned 100% left and right using a Rectifier and then two more panned 75% left and right using a JCM800? How about using a blend of 2 amps on the same guitar track? Should I try to get the best tone out of both amps and blend them? Or should I try to deliberately make one tone to fit with the other?

 

[Drew]

That's a good idea, I've never tried that before.



Like I said the patch is gone, I think my settings were approximately;

TS808 - Gain 2 - Tone 4 - Level - 5-8
PV Panama - Gain 3-4 - Low 5, Mids 6-7, Treble 4,5, Presence - I'm not sure, might have been 6-7, Master - 4,7 (this is the sweet spot for me), Resonance - 5,5
IR - ML Sound Lab Mega Oversize - OS 57 C, my fav from the pack, it's not a dark impulse, it's brighter than the mixes included in the pack if using that as a reference, and brighter than many Ownhammer mixes by default.
Then for EQ in the DAW I just cut below 80-100Hz, cut above 8500kHz approx, cut 1-2db around 750hz and add 0,5-1db at 5000kHz.

Chevelle used Mesa Mark IV or Mark V AFAIK, but I find those amps very hard to use even in the Helix, 2 gain knobs, that built in EQ, too many things. I try to play it as safe as possible.

I will try the all 6 thing, I like that configuration on the Bogner Uberschall model in the Helix, except for the Master control, but yeah, depending on the amp I should use less gain.

Yeah I'm not sure how much I can help you with that patticular amp and VST model, but I'd definitely do some experimentation with your settings here and see if you can get the raw amp sound to e closer to the sort of tone you're after.

Possibly even try a different model - something Mesa would probably get you a LOT closer to the tone you're after than these current settings, where the overall sound a "color" if you will of the guitar tone here doesn't really bear much resemblance to the tone you're talking about in that Chevelle tune.

EDIT - also, maybe ditch the boost. A 5150 has PLENTY of gain as it is, and I'm not aware a TS808 being considered as mandatory to shape the sound of a 5150 as people think it is for a Recto (and personally I like my Rectos unboosted, FWIW).

 

[Drew]

One more question, any of you guys have any info on blending amps? How would one go about that? Do I need to triple or quad track for that? Like for example two guitars panned 100% left and right using a Rectifier and then two more panned 75% left and right using a JCM800? How about using a blend of 2 amps on the same guitar track? Should I try to get the best tone out of both amps and blend them? Or should I try to deliberately make one tone to fit with the other?

I'd say focus on getting a single amp to sound the way you're happy with, for the time being, rather than adding even more complexity. Especually for these big hard rock tones you're talking about here, it's nothing you shouldn't be able to acheive just by double or quad tracking the same amp.

Down the road, in the "old days" you needed to use a searate take for each track, but that's a bit less true for working with DIs. At a minimum, no matter how many amps uou're usoing, you need two seperate takes, hard L and R. You could duplicate your DIs and run one on each side through one model, another through another, though if you did this I'd defintiely be aware of the possibility of phase issues, or if the tones weren't TOO radically different you could do one amp left and other right, but more standard I think is four takes, two on each side, one amp each.

Generally the thought here is complimentary tones, like a dark thick saturated the layered with a brighter, clearer, more open one, so that the sum of the two sounds huge, rather than trying to make each individual track sound huge. That said, I don't remember what Puddle of Mudd was playing through, but that Alter Bridge album I know well and sounds like it's all Recto, and the Chevelle clip sounds like it's mostly just one "core" amp sound, as well.

 

[DrakkarTyrannis]

I'd also agree with dropping the boost for now. It seems like the thing to do for everything, but honestly lots of guitar tones, especially rock tones, don't boost their amps. There's no reason to get super tightness since the riffs don't require that

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

Thanks for the great info, I plan to try some Mesa Rectifier / Mark IV on some tracks today.

While we're at it, how about this tone? I read that Mark Tremonti used his Cornford RK100 head in the studio for some of the albums years ago. There's no Cornford RK100 in the Helix, does anybody have any experience with the amp? Is there an amp that sounds like it that I could use?