Help me understand modes please!

[Hollowway]

So I understand modes in general (like A minor = E phrygian = C major, depending on what note you start on). But what I don't understand is how you would say a song is written in one mode or the other. So tell me if I'm understanding this correctly:

A song with a I IV V progression of A minor, D minor, E minor is a song written in A aeolian (A minor) as opposed to C Ionian (major), right? Now why wouldn't you say that it was a VI, II, III progression in C? Just because it would fit better as the typical I IV V?

If you had a song with something atypical, like a E-, G, B5 progession, would would you more likely call it a III, V, VII in C ionian , or a V, VII, II in A aeolian, or a I, III, V in E phrygian?

If you have a chord progression that is C5, F5, G5 and you solo over it with the A, B, C, D, E, F, G notes, is it by definition Ionian (major) mode for the solo, because of the notes? Whereas if you solo over it with the C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B notes, then it's C aeolian?

For the mode that you solo in, is it determined by the notes you play, or where to tend to resolve to? I.e. if you play the above example (C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B) but tend to hang around with C note a lot, would that alter what mode you referred to it as?

I know there are loads of tutorials and info online, but no matter how much I read, these questions still plague me. Especially the first two questions.
TIA

 

[BigPhi84]

Well, it has a lot to do with the tonic note, or what we perceive as the tonic note. If you played your progression of A minor, D minor, E minor to most music people, they would pick out A as the tonic, not C. Also, if you analyzed the chords in C, vi-> ii-> iii really makes no sense. See, in classical theory, there's rules to where chords want to resolve, i.e. harmonic progression. The I chord can go anywhere, ii usually goes to V, iii is rare and usually goes to vi, IV can go to I or sometimes V, V goes to I or vi in a deceptive resolution, vi goes to V, vii* is usually a sub for V and goes to one. Of course this is classical harmonic progression and usually only applies to Ionian and Harmonic/Melodic Minor. Your chords fit natural minor (or aeolian mode) much better. Still, most theory is still founded on the classical principles.

Check this out for more info:
The Chord Progression Chart for Classical Music - Music-Web Forums



part 2
"If you had a song with something atypical, like a E-, G, B5 progession, would would you more likely call it a III, V, VII in C ionian , or a V, VII, II in A aeolian, or a I, III, V in E phrygian?"

Why would it be phrygian? I would call it E minor. The only way it would be E phrygian is if you solo'd with an F natural instead of an F sharp.

part 3
If you have a chord progression that is C5, F5, G5 and you solo over it with the A, B, C, D, E, F, G notes, is it by definition Ionian (major) mode for the solo, because of the notes? Whereas if you solo over it with the C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B notes, then it's C aeolian?

Sort of for the first half. I think the chords help solidify that the progression is in C and the solo notes fall into Ionian, so C Ionian it is. No, for the second part. What you have is C Harmonic Minor. C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, and "Bb" would make it C Aeolian.

part 4
For the mode that you solo in, is it determined by the notes you play, or where to tend to resolve to? I.e. if you play the above example (C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb) but tend to hang around with C note a lot, would that alter what mode you referred to it as?

Well, since C would be the tonic, hanging around C would be the safe choice, along with the Eb and G on the C5 chord, the F, Ab, and C on the F5 chord, and the G, Bb, and D on the G5 chord.

part 5
I think the biggest issue you are having is that you are playing power chords and trying to use modes as a way of spicing up your solos, in effect separating the notes of a mode from the chords of a mode. Instead of approaching it that way, you should try to understand the chords of a mode and try to hear how they differ from the norm. I would advise you to try and find certain songs that are in Ionian (should be easy LOL), Lydian, and Mixolydian, and try to pick out the chords and hear the differences. These are the "major" modes and are better to start out with, since you can hear how different they all sound. If it weren't 2:57am here, I'd record a vid for you!!! Haha.

 

[fantom]

What BigPhi84 said... since it is a really good answer. I am emphasizing that the core thing that matters when determining a key is the overall sound. Guitar players (including me) tend to think stacked (ie. very narrow time-frame, but very good at layering notes within a short time-frame). You have to listen to the overall sound across the entire song (including different parts) and see the bigger picture... the resolving chord (aka, the tonic chord) is the key signature. Take that progression, what chord sounds like it "completes" it? The Am or the C? It's VERY rare that a iii, vi, vii progression will resolve to a I. Note the lowercase letters immediately saying minor->minor->minor resolves to MAJOR? What?? A i, iv, v resolving to a i... ya that sounds soothing. For super-generic ending, make that v a V7.

 

[BigPhi84]

Check out this thread by NickBen. I did some vids for him and posted them there.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/music-theory-lessons-and-techniques/86501-question-on-modes.html

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

If you played your progression of A minor, D minor, E minor to most music people, they would pick out A as the tonic, not C. Also, if you analyzed the chords in C, vi-> ii-> iii really makes no sense. See, in classical theory, there's rules to where chords want to resolve, i.e. harmonic progression. The I chord can go anywhere, ii usually goes to V, iii is rare and usually goes to vi, IV can go to I or sometimes V, V goes to I or vi in a deceptive resolution, vi goes to V, vii* is usually a sub for V and goes to one.

Sorry if this sounds nitpicky, but IV goes to V pretty frequently. In fact, IV-I is a rather weak cadence. Not to say that plagal cadences are infrequent, they happen all the time, but the dominant to tonic relationship really outlines a tonic. That V is what provides the tension that eventually propels you to I. And vi goes to IV (or ii) far more often than it goes to V. The sound of vi-IV is ubiquitous in doo-wop, and has the power to cause instant regurgitation.


As BigPhi84 said, the modal sound is found in the harmony. You can imply it in the melody, but getting the harmonies down is far more effective in understanding how modes work. You don't have to have the rhythm guitar taking all the notes of the chord, but having the third in the melody occasionally works beautifully. I'll run it down really quickly.

These are the diatonic chords of each mode, using sevenths where they're notable:

Major/Ionian:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
I ii iii IV V7 vi viiø7

Minor (note that I don't say aeolian; V and vii° are going to be affected by harmonic minor): i iiø7 III iv V7 VI vii°7

Aeolian:
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
i iiø7 III iv v VI VII

Dorian:
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
i ii III IV v vi° VII

Phrygian:
1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
i II III iv v° VI vii

Lydian:
1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
I II iii iv° Vmaj7 vi vii

Mixolydian:
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
I ii iii° IV v vi VII

Locrian:
1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
iø7 II iii iv V VI vii



Some chords really help to define these modes.

Ionian: I vi ii IV V viiø7... Anything, really. V-I is eventually where you want to get.
Dorian: I IV [Can be thought of as minor with a major IV chord.]
Phrygian: i (b)II [can be thought of as minor with a major bII chord.]
Lydian: Imaj7 Vmaj7 [Really, though, you want to emphasize the #4 scale degree.]
Mixolydian: I v bVII
Aeolian: i iv iiø7 v
Locrian: There aren't really any conventions for the locrian mode, as it is not used a whole lot in a tonal context, or in the modal styles of medieval church music, but using the chords from this mode, and omitting the fifth from the i° chord during cadences should establish a theoretically stable locrian modality.



Then, there's modal mixture and chromaticism, but it's 2 AM on Christmas.

 

[Hollowway]

Holy crap! A lot of responses for Christmas day! Thanks a TON you guys. Those are super helpful responses. I'll check those links, too Phi.

 

[BigPhi84]

Hey, I hope you don't mind the PM, but you definitely seem to be the theory expert on here, and I just read your posts in the May '09 thread about modes. So I have a couple of quick questions:
1) If I want to write a song in D dorian, what do I need to do to distinguish it from C major (ionian), in terms of the chord progression? i.e. with no solos, just chords, if I played D-, G, A-, would that be a I IV V progression in D dorian, for instance? And you'd call it that because I IV V is a more common progression than II, V, VI ( as it would be for C ionian)?

2) If I have a regular C, F, G progression in C major, and I want to solo over the chords in different modes, I think I could handle it if the chords were played for a long time. But If the C, F, G progression only took 2 bars, do you really try to switch modes during the chord changes? It would seem like things would be happening too fast to improvise. So instead would you just try to find modes that had common notes for the C, F, G chords and use those? i.e. CEG, FAC, GBD, so any scales that had ABCDFG would be fine, so you would essentially have C ionian and it's relative modes, and ABCDEbFG, which really isn't any scale at all. So then I'm stuck soloing in C ionian, right? Or could I solo in something else over the top without being dissonant? And if I soloed over it in E phrygian, for instance, you'd never really notice that I was in that mode, since it's relative to C ionian.

So anyway, if you have a second to reply, that would be awesome!
Thx,
Andy

part 1
Ah, you picked dorian first. Dang. That's one of the harder ones, chordwise, to hear. Ok, let try comparing this to natural minor, aka aeolian.

D Aeolian (D.a) - D,E,F,G,A,Bb,C,D
D Dorian (D.d)- D,E,F,G,A,Bnatural,C,D

So, you see that the only difference in notes is the 6th scale degree, which is raised. Let us build the chords for both modes now.

The i chord for both is D,F,A aka d minor
The ii° chord for (D.a) is E,G,Bb aka e diminished
The ii chord for (D.d) is E,G,Bnatural aka e minor
The III chord for both is F,A,C aka F Major
The iv chord for (D.a) is G,Bb,D aka G minor
The IV chord for (D.d) is G,B,D aka G Major
The v chord for both is A,C,E aka a minor
The V chord (which is A,C#,E aka A Major) can be substituted for the v chord in both modes
The bVI chord in (D.a) is Bb,D,F aka Bb Major
The vi° chord in (D.d) is Bnatural, D, F aka B diminished
The bVII chord in both is C,E,G aka C Major
The vii° chord (which is C#, E, G aka C# diminished) can be substituted for the bVII


Now, if you look at the differences in chords between the two modes, the two chord (ii° vs ii), the four chord (iv vs. IV) and the six chord (bVI vs. vi°) are the main differences.

Try this. (D.a) Play one bar of d minor, one bar of e diminished, one bar of a minor, back to d minor
Now, (D.d) do d minor, e minor, a minor, d minor

Next (D.a) d minor, g minor, a minor, d minor
Then (D.d) d minor, G Major, a minor, d minor

Next (D.a) Bb Major, a minor, d minor
Then (D.d) b diminished, a minor, d minor

Try to hear the differences between the sets of chords. Then, substitute A Major for a minor in all six of those examples.

The more you can hear the raised sixth, the easier it will be to hear the Dorian Mode.





part 2
For your question on C, F, G, I would just stick to C ionian for now. Later on, you can learn how to quickly switch modes for things like that. In fact, a lot of jazz is about coming up with interesting melodic lines based on modal changes, especially over ii-V-I or II-V-I (or ii°-V-i or II-V-i in minor) progressions. Technically, II is V/V but you don't need to know that yet.

 

[Hollowway]

Wow, thanks! This is really helping. So I guess the idea is that, although the (D.d) d minor, G Major, a minor, d minor progression could technically be in C Ionian, the fact that you keep hitting that I chord (and to a certain extent the IV and V) makes it a D Dorian progression, as opposed to calling it a II V VI progression in C Ionian. I think it's the fact that all of the modes are relative that screw me up. In other words, I might write a song that has a C, D, Bminor progression. I'd usually just call this a IV V III progression in G major (Ionian). But I could technically call it a III II I progression in B phrygian, or a III IV II progression in A Dorian. So when someone says "What's a song in B phrygian" I don't know if my progression qualifies or not. And I assume it's because I don't know enough about what resolves too what to really be able to classify it correctly. So in that instance, the C, D, Bminor progression, all other things being equal (i.e. let's assume it's a punk song with no other chords) what key and mode would you classify it as?

 

[BigPhi84]

Honestly, I played that progression on my guitar and it made no sense!!! LOL. I did try C for one bar, D for one bar, b minor for two bars, then C for one bar, D for one bar, and then G for two bars. It sounded okay and I would definitely put that in G Ionian.

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

C-D-Bm isn't III-II-i in B phrygian. You have the order a bit mixed up. Try D-C-Bm.

 

[Hollowway]

C-D-Bm isn't III-II-i in B phrygian. You have the order a bit mixed up. Try D-C-Bm.

Oh yeah, my bad. That's what I meant.

Honestly, I played that progression on my guitar and it made no sense!!! LOL. I did try C for one bar, D for one bar, b minor for two bars, then C for one bar, D for one bar, and then G for two bars. It sounded okay and I would definitely put that in G Ionian.

OK, good. That's kind of what I pictured it as. I think I get that now. So next question: I saw that other thread that was asking about metal songs in the phrygian mode. So what would be a typical representative chord progression for phrygian?

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

OK, good. That's kind of what I pictured it as. I think I get that now. So next question: I saw that other thread that was asking about metal songs in the phrygian mode. So what would be a typical representative chord progression for phrygian?

bII-i

 

[Hollowway]

bII-i

Haha, totally! I never figured it would be that easy to distinguish! Yeah, I can see where that's all over metal songs.

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

Yep. A common Dorian progression is i-IV, or i-ii, i-vi°, or really anything that involves those chords.

Mixolydian, I'd say bVII-I, v-I, and other aggregations thereof, like I-ii-v-I

It might be more effective to just stay on the tonic chord for some modes, though. I hear lydian being practiced more modally than harmonically, for instance. Think of the Back to the Future theme:

D--------4------
A-7-6--7--7-4--6
E--5----------5-

This may or may not be the right key (I'm using A lydian), but check it out. There really isn't any chord progression to speak of for that little bit; it's all on the I chord, with a few non-harmonic tones. A little bit after that, there is a chord change, and then the melody is transposed up an octave.