How 8 string and 9 string guitars change the role of the bass player in metal.

[luca9583]

I was thinking that since 8 string and 9 string guitars have been introduced, the sonic role of the bass player has changed a lot.

Basically, most bands that use 8 strings tuned to low F# have a bass player that is playing in the same octave..unless they're using a Warwick Darklord bass that goes to F# 0. But if the bass player has a normal 5 string bass, they can play lower than the guitars when the guitars remain in 7 string territory, but then end up playing "higher" when the guitars go "lower"!!!

I was listening closely to the mixes of bands like Meshuggah, Deftones and Ion Dissonance and it seems that the bass guitar is always cut in the lower frequencies below 100 hz to bring out the heaviness of the 8 strings (in much the same way that old school thrash records had an almost inaudible bass sound)

Ironic isn't it, given that the bottom end of a bass sounds good around 80hz?!!!

 

[arsonist]

Well this is crazy, but it was literally 2 minutes ago that I thought of:

how 8-9 string (extended range) guitars are a blessing to guitarists who were always sort-of "stuck between" guitar and bass guitar.
I've been playing for 13 years, and mostly in extreme (metal) music. My main priority has always been guitar, but i've always had a passion for bass. I totally respect bass guitarists, and especially their technique, and i've always sort of 'admitted' that either I have to spend a LOT of time practicing bass guitar techniques to become a good bass player, or never become one. Because of this, I sort of gave up on the whole idea of becoming a musician who's good at bass AND standard guitar, because I thought that it's either/or.
But this way, with 8/9 string guitar providing a bridge, I think there is an opportunity for musicians like myself to be able to create those ideas that they never could. I think it's a bridge between the two worlds, and that's fucking awesome!!

 

[luca9583]

Well this is crazy, but it was literally 2 minutes ago that I thought of:

how 8-9 string (extended range) guitars are a blessing to guitarists who were always sort-of "stuck between" guitar and bass guitar.
I've been playing for 13 years, and mostly in extreme (metal) music. My main priority has always been guitar, but i've always had a passion for bass. I totally respect bass guitarists, and especially their technique, and i've always sort of 'admitted' that either I have to spend a LOT of time practicing bass guitar techniques to become a good bass player, or never become one. Because of this, I sort of gave up on the whole idea of becoming a musician who's good at bass AND standard guitar, because I thought that it's either/or.
But this way, with 8/9 string guitar providing a bridge, I think there is an opportunity for musicians like myself to be able to create those ideas that they never could. I think it's a bridge between the two worlds, and that's fucking awesome!!

Great point about bridging the 2 worlds! A great example of that is Charlie Hunter, who plays both and guitar and bass simultaneously, eliminating the need for a bass player in his band.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Seeing as 8s are still deeply set in a niche, and 9s are almost non-existent I'd say that not a whole lot has changed. We'll see in a decade or two.

 

[Necris]

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/beginners-faq/138927-so-what-does-bass-do-8-string-band.html

 

[ArkaneDemon]

Seeing as 8s are still deeply set in a niche, and 9s are almost non-existent I'd say that not a whole lot has changed. We'll see in a decade or two.

In a decade or two, 15 string downtuned basstars will be standard in every genre (including pop), and music will reach a whole new audience...dogs, because they're going to be the only ones who can hear those frequencies .

 

[luca9583]

In a decade or two, 15 string downtuned basstars will be standard in every genre (including pop), and music will reach a whole new audience...dogs, because they're going to be the only ones who can hear those frequencies .

Ha ha ha ha!!!!

 

[MaxOfMetal]

In a decade or two, 15 string downtuned basstars will be standard in every genre (including pop), and music will reach a whole new audience...dogs, because they're going to be the only ones who can hear those frequencies .

Crazy things can happen, both big and small over that amount of time. Just look at the life of the 7-string, solid body, electric guitar.

1990 - Hits mass market.
1995 - Almost goes extinct.
2000 - Gets HUGE, even more so than before.
2005 - Interest fades once again.
2010 - It's even more popular than it's "peak" back in 00'.

The point being, no one can really predict what will be in and out of fashion in the guitar world. Who knows, in a decade there may be fewer 7s and 8s than there are now. It's a surprising concept for those who are too used to the widespread acceptance of ERGs on this board.

 

[Antimatter]

This is one of the things that bothers me because back in DEI Meshuggah days the bass was pretty loud but in Nothing you could almost never hear it, and in Obzen it was a bit louder than that. They have an awesome bass tone, why waste it?

 

[luca9583]

This is one of the things that bothers me because back in DEI Meshuggah days the bass was pretty loud but in Nothing you could almost never hear it, and in Obzen it was a bit louder than that. They have an awesome bass tone, why waste it?

I know what you mean.

I think it's a radical decision that has to be made in the mixing process..the Meshuggah recorded 8 string guitars have a lot of low end information in them that goes below 100 hz..i think that is why they have to cut those frequencies out of the bass. Their bass sound adds a subtle layer of distortion and attack to the overall mix, but doesn't provide any "pumping" bass sound.

Same goes for their snare sound..which on recent albums has a lot of higher frequency snap and not much bottom end fatness in order to leave space for the massive guitars.

 

[Bloody_Inferno]

This is one of the things that bothers me because back in DEI Meshuggah days the bass was pretty loud but in Nothing you could almost never hear it, and in Obzen it was a bit louder than that. They have an awesome bass tone, why waste it?

IIRC Nothing was recorded without a bass. That was when they got the new 8 strings and recorded (with detuned 7s) without Gustaf Heim (prior to sacking him too).

Somebody confrim this?

EDIT: If so, keep in mind that this was back in 2002, and that every subsquent release had bass in it.

 

[Hollowway]

There's a lot of room for creativity, too. Anyone remember Ned's Atomic Dustbin? Not metal, but they had two bass players - one that held down the low end, and one that played higher up doing the melody. Their guitarist does more rhythmic, sometimes ska type stuff.
And then there's Primus, where the bass takes up room for the guitar because Claypool is a maniac on his instrument.
So IMO we should be experimenting with alternatives to the bass playing the root of the guitar one octave lower.

 

[LordCashew]

IIRC Nothing was recorded without a bass. That was when they got the new 8 strings and recorded (with detuned 7s) without Gustaf Heim (prior to sacking him too).

Somebody confrim this?

No way. In fact there's some pretty obviously audible bass in Stengah, especially in the original mix. You can really hear it starting around :48 when the guitars are semi-muted and the bass sustains.

I remember hearing something about one of the guitarists also playing bass at some point. Maybe that's what happened if they fired their bassist before recording.

 

[gs_waldemar]

I find it interesting how my fellow musicians (especially bass guitar players) often discuss the matter whether you can hear the bass in song XY or not. The idea of the bass guitar made sense in classical music, where it has a clearly defined position, between the other mid- and highranged instruments, so that the whole orchestra can cover most audible frequencies and produca full sounding music.
So if you have a guitar thats goes as low as a bass, you technically dont need a "bass guitar" (I wonder why we call that drop-x, 152-string thing a guitar anyway...)...

If you can cover the lower freq with a keyboard, guitar or whatever you dont "need" a bass guitar. If you play rock-like music, the bass there coops with the drums while the guitar doeas more of a melody/independant thing...

I personally find the bass player of Amon Amarth & co. really ridiculous, still I like some of their stuff. You just never hear any bass guitar work in their music. It would be an innovation if some instrument started covering the midrange in metal again, since all the trve metal guitarists seem to be more interested in the bass guitar frequencies.

 

[ev1ltwin]

I find it interesting how my fellow musicians (especially bass guitar players) often discuss the matter whether you can hear the bass in song XY or not. The idea of the bass guitar made sense in classical music, where it has a clearly defined position, between the other mid- and highranged instruments, so that the whole orchestra can cover most audible frequencies and produca full sounding music.
So if you have a guitar thats goes as low as a bass, you technically dont need a "bass guitar" (I wonder why we call that drop-x, 152-string thing a guitar anyway...)...

If you can cover the lower freq with a keyboard, guitar or whatever you dont "need" a bass guitar. If you play rock-like music, the bass there coops with the drums while the guitar doeas more of a melody/independant thing...

I personally find the bass player of Amon Amarth & co. really ridiculous, still I like some of their stuff. You just never hear any bass guitar work in their music. It would be an innovation if some instrument started covering the midrange in metal again, since all the trve metal guitarists seem to be more interested in the bass guitar frequencies.

this is basically what i was going to say. the bass just takes up the lower frequencies to make music sound full. even if you're playing an 8 string, if you're going through a traditional guitar amp and cabinet, it's not going to replace the bass guitar's role at all.

for example, a new EVM-12L (a 300W kickass 12" speaker) has a Usable Frequency Response of 80-5,000Hz. The audible range for undamaged human ears is 20-20,000. So you're missing out on 2 octaves lower and 2 octaves higher of audible range with this particular guitar speaker.

EDIT: if you've ever heard a 40Hz clear test signal, you know what you're missing

 

[bostjan]

I haven't seen any mass change in the role of bass guitar in heavy music in general in the past fifteen years.

I do remember, though, when many five string basses were tuned EADG + high C. Nowadays, it's difficult to find anything about these basses, so maybe it will come down to seven string basses being tuned with low F#s rather than high Fs. Or maybe not...

 

[TMM]

I don't think the role really changes from what it is now... basic goal is to fill out the low end. As much as there are 8+ string guitars, tuned ridiculously low in some cases, the guitar speaker reproducing the tone is still not going to accurately reproduce some of those low frequencies that the bass / bass speakers will. Beyond that, there are plenty of bands where the bass player is as all-over-the-place frequency-wise as some guitarists are. Just check out Viraemia.

 

[matt moulton]

I don't agree when people say that it doesn't sound as heavy with bass playing unison. Even though it's the same note the bass is still crushing.

When I started recording 8 string parts I tried muting the bass every once in a while and the mix sounds really sissy without it, 8 string or not.

 

[TemjinStrife]

A 34 or 35" scale bass guitar playing low E is going to sound very different than even a 30" scale 8-string guitar playing low E. The amount of string tension is different and the tonal profile is different, and even if you played them through the same rig, it's going to sound very different.

In my experience, guitars (even when tuned down to low F#) sound best high passed above 200Hz or so (generally a little higher even), and a gradual high pass rolloff below 80-120Hz for the bass guitar to make room for the kick is excellent for "clearing up" a mix. Even if you're running some monstrosity tuned to drop Z, the bass has an important role to play, and you should leave those frequencies to someone truly equipped to create and reproduce them

After all, especially with distortion, all you're hearing is the higher harmonics anyways; the fundamental is pretty well obscured. Most bass rigs can't even reproduce the fundamental of the low B string on a 5-string bass at anywhere close to the level of its first overtone.

 

[capo_fez]

I have to agree with Matt. I have done the same experiment and it sounds very thin without bass in the mix. That's not to say it can't sound good. I have played bass and guitar with multiple projects that were using 8-string guitars and it really didn't make sense sometimes to go that octave lower. I found it more of a tone issue as opposed to tonic. I also found it very helpful to play various harmonies instead of unison, but it all came back to what the music needed to sound full.