How 8 string and 9 string guitars change the role of the bass player in metal.

[Samarus]

I think that bass offers a different kind of the same note. 8 and 9 strings are great for guitarists looking to expand their range and explore new musical possibilities. Unless everyone begins playing Charlie Hunter Novax guitars, I doubt this will be a problem.

I do, however think that bands in the future will skip out on the live bassist like Animals as Leaders.

 

[sepsis311]

I have a couple 7 strings and an 8 string guitars, but I also play bass. When i was pondering picking up an 8-string, i didnt know how i would possibly be able to put bass to tracks that i record with 8-string. Well i tried it out and it worked out well, and wanted to share my experience for you guys to help because i did do some searching on the topic and didn't find what i needed.

First of all, when your playing bass, lets assume its a 5 string, or a 4 string in
B E A D (a 5 string set with the G left off).

Next, have the 8-string guitar tuned to drop E ( E B E A D G B E).

Whats important to remember is that the bass and guitar fundamentally sound different. Even if the low E on the 8 string guitar is the same octave as the bass, just remember the string thickness is different, the scale lengths are different, the pickups are different, the amps are different, etc... so you get a different tone from both instruments. Basically, it means the 8 string low E on the guitar cant replicate the lowest frequencies as the E string on the bass. So sonically it works.

Now for playability (from the bass players perspective)...
It's just like using a 5 string bass in a 6 string band, where you'd use the E string most of the time to match the E on the guitar, and drop to the B when you felt like it. Well, the principal still applies. Stay on the E on the bass, and use the B only when it applies.

Bass tuning...
Like i said im experimenting in drop E for now on the 8 string just to make things easy, and i have the bass in drop A, so i match the Bass E to the guitar's 2 E's, and go to the low B whenever, just like if the guitar was a 6 string standard.

I've been trying to figure out a method for playing to an 8 string in F# standard. I thought it might be ok to tune the bass up, but im not sure i like that idea. I also don't like the idea of constantly riding the second fret.

 

[LordCashew]

I've been trying to figure out a method for playing to an 8 string in F# standard. I thought it might be ok to tune the bass up, but im not sure i like that idea. I also don't like the idea of constantly riding the second fret.

Capo.

 

[ra1der2]

I didn't read through everything if it's already been mentioned but also the frequency on a low B on the bass is around 30Hz, so technically it's still lower than a standard tuned 8's F# at around 46Hz.

 

[HellMinor]

I have a couple 7 strings and an 8 string guitars, but I also play bass. When i was pondering picking up an 8-string, i didnt know how i would possibly be able to put bass to tracks that i record with 8-string. Well i tried it out and it worked out well, and wanted to share my experience for you guys to help because i did do some searching on the topic and didn't find what i needed.

First of all, when your playing bass, lets assume its a 5 string, or a 4 string in
B E A D (a 5 string set with the G left off).

Next, have the 8-string guitar tuned to drop E ( E B E A D G B E).

Whats important to remember is that the bass and guitar fundamentally sound different. Even if the low E on the 8 string guitar is the same octave as the bass, just remember the string thickness is different, the scale lengths are different, the pickups are different, the amps are different, etc... so you get a different tone from both instruments. Basically, it means the 8 string low E on the guitar cant replicate the lowest frequencies as the E string on the bass. So sonically it works.

Now for playability (from the bass players perspective)...
It's just like using a 5 string bass in a 6 string band, where you'd use the E string most of the time to match the E on the guitar, and drop to the B when you felt like it. Well, the principal still applies. Stay on the E on the bass, and use the B only when it applies.

Bass tuning...
Like i said im experimenting in drop E for now on the 8 string just to make things easy, and i have the bass in drop A, so i match the Bass E to the guitar's 2 E's, and go to the low B whenever, just like if the guitar was a 6 string standard.

I've been trying to figure out a method for playing to an 8 string in F# standard. I thought it might be ok to tune the bass up, but im not sure i like that idea. I also don't like the idea of constantly riding the second fret.

Cool approach man. I've done something similar, but I'll get to that later.

8 or 9 string guitar != bass

Yes it may be possible to play the same notes (tonically speaking) on either instrument, there are many other parameters that play into its overall sound (scale length, string size, string tension, material choices, amplification, etc.). Bass players won't ever be completely eliminated from metal bands for the same reason any other stringed instrument with the same sonic range hasn't (say piano for example).

In light of that, metal--like all other music--is an art form, so there is no right or wrong, only a set of practices common to most metal artists.

Tuning wise, I've used a 4 string bass in drop B (B F# B E) in conjunction with a 8 string guitar in standard. That way you've got the option of a B (either unison, or an octave below) or a unison F# to use with the 8 string. I've found it to be a useful configuration.

 

[gr8Har V]

This is one of the things that bothers me because back in DEI Meshuggah days the bass was pretty loud but in Nothing you could almost never hear it, and in Obzen it was a bit louder than that. They have an awesome bass tone, why waste it?

yea the bass in Nothing was inaudible, but in obZen, especially "Lethargica" it was always present and had that amazing dirtiness that you gotta love.

I think the concept of trading off who has the low end and who has the high end makes perfect sense. when a bass plays high it has a melodic condensed warm tone that there's nothing wrong with. the way most people think of bass, you'd think the top 3 or 4 strings are just there for looks. i say let the guitar chug along occasionally and let the bass take the spotlight for a bit. the only bands i can think of that show off the bass more than just 3 times an album are Rush, Hourglass, and a bit of Meshuggah

 

[Katrina]

I always thought it wouldn't be all that bad to have a drop E eight-string coupled with a bass tuned to the normal EADG.

Does anyone see how that might not work out?

 

[Hollowway]

the only bands i can think of that show off the bass more than just 3 times an album are Rush, Hourglass, and a bit of Meshuggah

Yeah, the bass needs to be considered a separate instrument (IMO) and not just a guitar thickener. No one criticizes the keyboard/piano player for playing in the same register as the guitarist, so neither should they worry about the bassist.

(And on the topic of bassists coming to the forefront in bands, I'll add to the list (not metal, mind you, but cool for working on your bass chops): RHCP, Violent Femmes, The Cure, Rancid).

 

[TemjinStrife]

Yeah, the bass needs to be considered a separate instrument (IMO) and not just a guitar thickener. No one criticizes the keyboard/piano player for playing in the same register as the guitarist, so neither should they worry about the bassist.

(And on the topic of bassists coming to the forefront in bands, I'll add to the list (not metal, mind you, but cool for working on your bass chops): RHCP, Violent Femmes, The Cure, Rancid).

Also, add Muse, Cake, and No Doubt to that list.

Some bands just want a "guitar thickener" or "pocket player," and it can be really difficult to play "the right thing at the right time" (writing the basslines to ZZ top or AC/DC, for instance.) Generally though, two-guitar bands (and metal bands in general) make it really hard for a bass player to do much more than chug away at the low notes in unison since there's no "space" in the mix for them to do anything else.

 

[CONTEMPT]

I always thought it wouldn't be all that bad to have a drop E eight-string coupled with a bass tuned to the normal EADG.

Does anyone see how that might not work out?

My current project is experimenting with this.

 

[JamieB]

My band uses the bass to cut through mixes in certain points.

We keep are bassist in check keeping the rythm until theres perfect oppurtunity to slap and pop and cut through the mix sounds insane. weve even started to experiment with tuning the bass higher.

We also do alot of wooten style percussive bass to fill in so the drums can do more inflections on cymbals sounds pretty cool hopefully have something up soon to show you guys if your intrested.

 

[Xplora]

Thread resurrection: There is only one answer to this question, and you won't find it in metal.

Check out orchestration tutorials (I found the one at Northernsounds.com to be free and fantastic) to understand about the different tonality of various instruments. You can argue about the bass fitting in with the music - what about keys? Tuba? Contrabassoon? Double Bass? The sampler? The guitars/bass/drums idiom that most rock oriented guys deal with is simply ridiculous for trying to understand how to resolve the problem. The fact is, bass is a completely separate instrument, and if it wasn't for the mind numbing talentlessness of many bass players, we'd see it in its proper capacity. You don't have to be Les Claypool or Vic Wooten, but you should be doing more than just pumping on the E string an octave below. The only exceptions to this are bass/vocalists where they are at least doing something to keep busy. Check out a few good bass covers of Battery. They are walking all over the place during the chorus! The bass is filling the space created by the drums and guitar chords. Dudes from Necrophagist and Obscura are embracing this idea and it is good to hear. You MUST treat the bass as a new instrument, or just ignore it. I'm thinking about an Agile 830, and I'd tune way down to bass Drop D with a phat string, and probably run stereo output, one for a bass sim, another for guitar sim. I wouldn't intend on brutalising every track, but the possibility is there. I just don't need a second guitar or a bass if I'm slamming powerchords!

As a musician, you must open your mind to the past, and they've been dealing with these orchestration issues for CENTURIES. Much of the problem lies in the fact that most guitarist songwriters think that clever orchestration is harmonising a lead fill or making all instruments strike at the same time djent djent...

 

[Djentai]

So throwing my 2 cents into the pond...

I remember many moons ago that the reason I first started down tuning my six strings was so I could get fuller chords and recreate the fullness of playing with a bass player. And by not having access to a bass player, trying alternate tunings, etc. etc. to cover the spectrum of playing, I expanded my own abilities to create music with depth in the tonal sounds of what a one-man-band is capable of...However-
Even though down tuning, using Baritones, 7's, and 8's are great for my need to use depth in my playing and what I can do, I still crave for the resonant and tonal sound created by the frequency spectrum of a bass. And I think that it doesn't really matter how low (or high for that matter) a guitar or bass tunes, the development (of the instruments) should be in their respective ability to efficiently express the tonal frequency range that they are trying to express. And as well as the ability to write parts that use the two in equilibrium. So even though ERGuitarists can go lower and lower and lower and not really anyone wants a Bassist to go higher and higher and higher, it is most important to think about the freq. aspects of what they each offer.
'Cuz hell even when I once down tuned my 24.75" Gibson SG and strung up a .70 gauge on the 6th string, I was still like, "...Well...This is kinda close, but I'd rather have a bass filling in these frequencies.."
I think it's important to use the bass whether or not you're playing in/below their octave. Most of the time you won't get that full frequency-tonal-resonant-impactful sound. Some do, but it's also variant on the goal of the music. Even if I was playing a 32-string ERG that's a -52 octave F#, I'm probably still gonna want a super-bass to round around those frequencies and junk. Well. Unless my 32-string guitar has 62in scale...Then I guess I'm good..

But anyhooser, I think ERG metal tends to have a somewhat general split through it that either actually utilizes the sound spectrum of bass and guitar (and ERG) together, or tends to use bass and guitar together due to tradition.

Any thoughts?

 

[Stephen Kale]

I agree with Xplora said. The bass has to be considered as a different instrument. There's no sense in keeping hitting the E string again and again.
The role of the bass should be seen as people are used to see the guitar. Why can't a bass playing some leads?
As it has already been said, I don't think ERGs change the role of the bass much. If you cut the bass out, even when it's played in the same octave, the intensity of the mix falls down right away (most of the time).

Of course, it depends of the part of the song, the compromises and choices a band/artist makes.
I think ERG (especially when distorded) don't change the fact that bass have that low and round bottom end that you need in a general mix.
But everything is always a question of choices.

 

[Xplora]

It's somewhat amusing that it is presumed that the bass guitar must constantly be present to make the music work. Check out Peter and the Wolf for some really interesting approaches to orchestration. Or chamber music in general. Yes, for that brutal assault you have to have the bass supporting the music, but we should take a more mature approach to the orchestration of the music. The dynamics of your music should call for different approaches for different feels. The bass SHOULD follow the guitar melody sometimes, it SHOULD go an octave below and pound away, and it should walk and tell its own story sometimes as well. Check out Nile's Unas Slayer of the Gods for a great example of the bass being used in a useful dynamic context. There are some apocalyptic heavy doom sections where it sounds like the bass is working extra hard, and others where it doesn't feature as much. Shem Sor (final track?) on Behemoth's Demigod album clearly shows the bass doing more than just following. Yes, these bass examples follow the melody an octave below, but they are clearly being featured to create that atmosphere of power. A guitar CANNOT do that by itself. Also check out Cannibal Corpse for intelligent use of the bass. Do you play 16ths when you don't have to?

The bass always has capacity to dynamically control the band. I think a lot of metalheads forget that. We hear the guitar because we are used to focussing on it, and because the bass is poorly mixed and played. Can you imagine Iron Maiden with a crappy bass player?

The treatment of the bass as a separate instrument creates a lot of tension for the guitars IMO, because most bands aren't clever enough to orchestrate a genuine second part. Check out Emperor's Prometheus album for a BRILLIANT demonstration of how to use different parts to really necessitate the 3 guitars in that band.

 

[GTailly]

Well this is crazy, but it was literally 2 minutes ago that I thought of:

how 8-9 string (extended range) guitars are a blessing to guitarists who were always sort-of "stuck between" guitar and bass guitar.
I've been playing for 13 years, and mostly in extreme (metal) music. My main priority has always been guitar, but i've always had a passion for bass. I totally respect bass guitarists, and especially their technique, and i've always sort of 'admitted' that either I have to spend a LOT of time practicing bass guitar techniques to become a good bass player, or never become one. Because of this, I sort of gave up on the whole idea of becoming a musician who's good at bass AND standard guitar, because I thought that it's either/or.
But this way, with 8/9 string guitar providing a bridge, I think there is an opportunity for musicians like myself to be able to create those ideas that they never could. I think it's a bridge between the two worlds, and that's fucking awesome!!

I totally agree with the point you mentionned.

Actually, my friend (who was guitarist with me in my last band) always had a passion for bass guitar but kind of had the same point of view on learning it as you stated. During the last few months of the band's existence, we had both moved to 8 string guitars to achieve a type of sound we were looking for. Surprinsingly, the ability to produce ideas he had wanted to write on bass for years were now possible to kind of imitate on the 8 string and he really felt in love.

Few weeks later, band was dead and we were talking about forming a new one. This is when he made his *coming out* and announced me that he truely felt the passion to become our full-time bass player.

The new project has now been living for the last three months and we are all in love with his playing style and the basslines he writes for my riffs.

Thanks to 8 string guuitars.

By the way, since that, I sold my 8 string and bought a carvin DC727. 7 Strings and 5 string bass, best of both worlds speaking for myself.

 

[animalwithin]

luca, whats the guitar in your avatar?

 

[luca9583]

luca, whats the guitar in your avatar?

Do you mean my old avatar with the brown headstock and 3 bass tuners (that was a Novax Charlie Hunter 8 string i sold recently), or the sexy sketch in my album that will become my custom guitar?!!!

Anyway, i started this thread a while ago because i was getting really annoyed with most metal mixes that used ERGs, in that the bass was just completely void of any bass frequencies. It's difficult though, because if you want the guitars to sound bigger, then you need to sacrifice the bottom end somewhere, which in turn is why the kick drum in metal always has that clicky beater sound..so it doesn't fight with the guitars

 

[JazzandMetal]

Do you mean my old avatar with the brown headstock and 3 bass tuners (that was a Novax Charlie Hunter 8 string i sold recently), or the sexy sketch in my album that will become my custom guitar?!!!

Anyway, i started this thread a while ago because i was getting really annoyed with most metal mixes that used ERGs, in that the bass was just completely void of any bass frequencies. It's difficult though, because if you want the guitars to sound bigger, then you need to sacrifice the bottom end somewhere, which in turn is why the kick drum in metal always has that clicky beater sound..so it doesn't fight with the guitars

This is a great thread you started. i did a science project a while back on the loudness war and how modern music was missing almost all of its dynamics. Maybe if the overall mix was a little quieter the drums could breathe a little.

Anyway, on James Labrie's solo album Static impulse has the awesome Marco Sfogli on a seven string and the guitar tone is really thick and low, but the bass is there and accents a bunch of things. It does these cool fills and mini solos, and really adds to the music. The bass definitely adds a ton to good music.

Opeth is a great example of awesome production, and they use the bass really well. Coming back to shat I said about the drums, the kick is still like a patterpatterpatter, but it is a little thicker than normal metal bands because of the space they give the instruments.

 

[G_3_3_k_]

I don't think the guitar will ever replace the bass. The difference in the timbre is too different.

In my current project there isn't a bass player. But we a synth player doing things in that frequency range. Since I'm doing the majority of the production and I'm looking for a bit more of a full range detuned guitar sound it works. Especially the way I want to mix it. I'm going to mix in 5.1, but not as a surround mix. More like speaker groupings. The synths will share a stereo spectrum and the guitars a separate stereo spectrum with drums and backing vocals being the only true surround instruments. Lead vox, solos, snare and kick in the Center channel to focus the mix, and a low pass on the guitars and synths to filter the low end to the sub channel.

Also, listen to some NIN. There are some great songs with great mixes that don't have any bass in them.