How do you guys typically record with amp sims? Gain or no gain on your interface?

[Stiman]

I think the reason I kept setting levels so high when I first got my interface was because I still had this video in mind

Yes, I've always had that video in mind as well. But the major difference, what makes ALL the difference here, is that Misha is taking a line level out of the Axefx, which is a finished tone, post amp and FX. If I was plugging my HX Stomp into my 2i2, I would do the same thing he's going. But when plugging a guitar in and feeding it into a amp sim, it's an entirely different thing.

 

[Matt08642]

Yes, I've always had that video in mind as well. But the major difference, what makes ALL the difference here, is that Misha is taking a line level out of the Axefx, which is a finished tone, post amp and FX. If I was plugging my HX Stomp into my 2i2, I would do the same thing he's going. But when plugging a guitar in and feeding it into a amp sim, it's an entirely different thing.

Shows my ignorance from 2015 Back when I first watched that video, I never even realized it was the line out from the AFX and just assumed it was across the board advice for all inputs.

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

Guys it's 2 different things. If I record my Helix into the input of my interface, it doesn't matter if the gain is at minimum, you can always change that later. You just want the recorded signal to be at around -18 decibels. 0 input gain is especially useful if you're using 2 inputs for stereo effects, because that way you know for sure that the signal level is the same on both channels.
BUT recording a direct guitar signal with your interface is different. If the one you record is weak you're gonna have to crank the input gain on your plugin. Because it will affect how your "amp" sounds. The idea is for it to be just loud enough but without clipping, because if you do clip on a recorded take you can't undo that. This is really easy to do with some interfaces like the Scarlets with the colour thingies on the inputs.
In the Helix for example the input gain job is already done for you.

 

[Stiman]

Guys it's 2 different things. If I record my Helix into the input of my interface, it doesn't matter if the gain is at minimum, you can always change that later. You just want the recorded signal to be at around -18 decibels. 0 input gain is especially useful if you're using 2 inputs for stereo effects, because that way you know for sure that the signal level is the same on both channels.
BUT recording a direct guitar signal with your interface is different. If the one you record is weak you're gonna have to crank the input gain on your plugin. Because it will affect how your "amp" sounds. The idea is for it to be just loud enough but without clipping, because if you do clip on a recorded take you can't undo that. This is really easy to do with some interfaces like the Scarlets with the colour thingies on the inputs.
In the Helix for example the input gain job is already done for you.

This is exactly what I just wrote. Did you not read my post?

 

[AwakenTheSkies]

This is exactly what I just wrote. Did you not read my post?

Nope, I wrote mine while you were writing yours.

 

[Filter]

How timely:

Ok need some help with this. I have a presonus studio24c. In the specs do I go off the mic preamp max input level which is +10 dBu (+-0.5 dBu minimum gain) or the main and line outputs maximum level which is +10 dBu (1kHz, unity gain, balanced)

Second question, does this mean I need to drop the ampsim input value by 2 - 3 dB?
Or what do I set the interface input to and ampsim input to based on this?

 

[Stiman]

Ok need some help with this. I have a presonus studio24c. In the specs do I go off the mic preamp max input level which is +10 dBu (+-0.5 dBu minimum gain) or the main and line outputs maximum level which is +10 dBu (1kHz, unity gain, balanced)

Second question, does this mean I need to drop the ampsim input value by 2 - 3 dB?
Or what do I set the interface input to and ampsim input to based on this?

The owners manual for your interface says +10dBu for the line/instrument input.

According to the video, you'd want to set the gain on your interface to 0, and cut a little but of gain on the input level of NDSP.

I tested this myself last night with my Scarlett 2i2 (3rd gen), which has a max input gain value of +15.5dBu. According to the video, I should be boosting my input signal in NDSP but I found I actually needed to cut the input gain and the output gain to not get clipping and for it to sound better. So my best advice is to play with it and see what works best for you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Filter]

The owners manual for your interface says +10dBu for the line/instrument input.

According to the video, you'd want to set the gain on your interface to 0, and cut a little but of gain on the input level of NDSP.

I tested this myself last night with my Scarlett 2i2 (3rd gen), which has a max input gain value of +15.5dBu. According to the video, I should be boosting my input signal in NDSP but I found I actually needed to cut the input gain and the output gain to not get clipping and for it to sound better. So my best advice is to play with it and see what works best for you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Cheers. I just tried cutting the NDSP input by 3dB and it helped.
I’m curious about something. Your scarlet max gain is +15.5dBu. Why would that mean to boost instead of cut according to the video?

 

[Stiman]

I’m curious about something. Your scarlet max gain is +15.5dBu. Why would that mean to boost instead of cut according to the video?

I'm no expert, but I believe it's because the number is headroom, so a bigger number = more headroom = lower input volume from the instrument. The video is essentially saying that the amp sims are expecting somewhere around 12 and so if you're above it, you need to boost, below it you need to cut.

Again, I could be wrong, my understanding is still fuzzy.

 

[Filter]

I'm no expert, but I believe it's because the number is headroom, so a bigger number = more headroom = lower input volume from the instrument. The video is essentially saying that the amp sims are expecting somewhere around 12 and so if you're above it, you need to boost, below it you need to cut.

Again, I could be wrong, my understanding is still fuzzy.

My tone has improved across my ampsims, NDSP, mercuriall 6160iii, u530, Toneforge disruptor.
I’ve essentially lowered the ampsim input and output in some cases.
I also find that if I set my interface input to about halfway or less than, it’s better then at zero. But will still experiment with zero.

 

[Stiman]

My tone has improved across my ampsims, NDSP, mercuriall 6160iii, u530, Toneforge disruptor.
I’ve essentially lowered the ampsim input and output in some cases.
I also find that if I set my interface input to about halfway or less than, it’s better then at zero. But will still experiment with zero.

It's been my experience as well that I need to lower the input on both Helix Native and NDSP, and I need to lower the output as well on NDSP.

I'll need to experiment with the interface gain like you've done to see for myself. Although I found it pretty good with the gain at 0 when I tested last night.

 

[owlexifry]

How timely:

ill admit i ignored this video and didn't watch it.


and now i just saw this one come up (haven't watched it, but i've been reading the comments).


im so lost, wtf is going on.
it doesn't make any sense to me to have lower input gain [guitar direct to audio interface] - in terms of signal/noise ratio. wouldn't less gain mean more noise?
i feel like ive missed a massive point here.

i dont use neural, but in a couple months ill be recording with someone that does. wouldn't mind getting this right with him.

 

[Filter]

ill admit i ignored this video and didn't watch it.


and now i just saw this one come up (haven't watched it, but i've been reading the comments).


im so lost, wtf is going on.
it doesn't make any sense to me to have lower input gain [guitar direct to audio interface] - in terms of signal/noise ratio. wouldn't less gain mean more noise?
i feel like ive missed a massive point here.

i dont use neural, but in a couple months ill be recording with someone that does. wouldn't mind getting this right with him.

Depends on the setup ie interface, guitar etc.
in my experience if I set interface to zero the signal is too weak. I have neuraldsp gojira.
When I set my interface to about 10 o’clock I get better results for high gain tones.
With that said, for clean tones it’s better to lower the interface if the tone is not sounding clean. Trust your ears!
Ps. Aim for true peak of -12dB roughly on your level meter.
Hope this helps.
PPS I use a presonus 24c interface

 

[Filter]

ill admit i ignored this video and didn't watch it.


and now i just saw this one come up (haven't watched it, but i've been reading the comments).


im so lost, wtf is going on.
it doesn't make any sense to me to have lower input gain [guitar direct to audio interface] - in terms of signal/noise ratio. wouldn't less gain mean more noise?
i feel like ive missed a massive point here.

i dont use neural, but in a couple months ill be recording with someone that does. wouldn't mind getting this right with him.

Also forgot about your question re signal/noise ratio… my answer being, not necessarily, in so far as guitar input. If you think about it, guitar pickups are far noisier than the noise floor on your interface. Making it not an issue. It would be a factor on microphones more than direct guitar /instrument.

 

[Fenriswolf]

I just set it to whatever doesn't cause clipping.

Since I mess with both real amps and amp sims I'm constantly fiddling with the input levels.

The last couple things I've record have been on a dimed 120w Peavey Deuce into a 100w Two Notes Torpedo. I set my interface to where while I get a little clipping, it's more Van Halen 1 that's a loud fucking amp clipping instead of Death Magnetic they recorded that album too loud kind of clipping.

And then I do the most guitar player thing imaginable...record song perfectly in 1 or 2 takes in one shot, sounds perfect, not mistakes, too self critical to ever post it anywhere.

 

[Stiman]

it doesn't make any sense to me to have lower input gain [guitar direct to audio interface] - in terms of signal/noise ratio. wouldn't less gain mean more noise?

Think of it like a gain boost pedal where at zero gain, it's unity "volume" going through, otherwise, you're boosting the signal.

So do you want to try all amp sims where you're placing a boost pedal in front of every amp you try, including clean channels? Do you think you'll be able to get a better sense of the amps you try with a boost in front of it? Cause that's what you're essentially doing.

Edit:
Also, you admit to both not watching the videos and being confused. Why don't you just watch it?

 

[c7spheres]

With modern Daw's gain isn't much of an issue. Do what people like @Drew and others are saying here. The confusion comes from people thinking like their digital device is analog which it's not. The hottest level possible thing is from certain analog gear back in those days. With modern daw's it's better to get a healthy level that's no to low or hot. It techincally doesn't matter much in regards to gain but as far as noise floor is concerned just make sure the levels are healthy and it's not overly noisy. This way there's less cleaning noise up in the mix, but as far as levels in modern floating point daw's it's almost irrelevant because they can be adjusted almost infinitely. Some older daw's and digital stuff still needs to be treated more like analog. Those are fixed point systems, most modern systems are floating point or have the option to change between fixed and floating etc.

- In a float point system aimi for -18 to -12db with -12 to -6db peaks generally, in a fixed point the same thing will work but for certain sources like vocals and acoustic guitars and drum attack you may want to go for as high as possible without clipping. With analog use Vu meters and get it as high as possible. This is general talking for many scenarios, there's always exceptions.

- What you should really be looking for in any type of system is a healthy level with a good peak to average level that has acceptable noise and sound good and blended with the rest of the tracks as you'd want them in the song, preferable ibefore it's tracked. Using VU meters (even digital plugin versions) can help a lot with any type setup as well. VU is a good place to start experimenting for those still a bit confused. VU's are a better representation of human hearing than peak meters etc.

 

[owlexifry]

Think of it like a gain boost pedal where at zero gain, it's unity "volume" going through, otherwise, you're boosting the signal.

So do you want to try all amp sims where you're placing a boost pedal in front of every amp you try, including clean channels? Do you think you'll be able to get a better sense of the amps you try with a boost in front of it? Cause that's what you're essentially doing.

Edit:
Also, you admit to both not watching the videos and being confused. Why don't you just watch it?

thanks for the response that makes sense.

ive watched them now, just didn't have time/opportunity yesterday.

 

[hensh!n]

I think the reason I kept setting levels so high when I first got my interface was because I still had this video in mind:



Basically Misha was using an old ass 2i2 that I guess probably needed the boost vs my interface that absolutely doesn't. Willing to bet a lot of people saw this or similar videos and just carried that nugget forward.

Yeah, I think this is outdated advice. My understanding of signal-to-noise is that typically relates to recording to tape. The noise floor in a A/D setup (i.e., modern setup) is vastly different. Your interface preamp likely still has a "noise floor", but it shouldn't be to the extent where setting the gain to 0 on your interface is anywhere near said noise floor. However, we can also think of signal-to-noise in different stages, which is where it becomes more confusing.

Ultimately, guitar amplifiers usually have a terrible signal-to-noise ratio (for high-gain anyway). And pickups are really good at picking up unintended noise (RF, EMI, etc.). This was a useful test:



Another point, it appears that different companies and/or products have a different reference level when modeling their amps. I would recommend finding out what yours is (it should be in the manual). However, manuals can (and often) provide misguided or outdated advice. Some may tell you to get it hot enough just before clipping, and others to give yourself more headroom. Lately, I've been keeping my interface gain at unity and using the input gain in my amp sims to achieve the appropriate reference level. As always, use your ears. But also use your brain too. Just don't overthink all of this stuff like I probably have.

 

[Matt08642]

Yeah, I think this is outdated advice. My understanding of signal-to-noise is that typically relates to recording to tape. The noise floor in a A/D setup (i.e., modern setup) is vastly different. Your interface preamp likely still has a "noise floor", but it shouldn't be to the extent where setting the gain to 0 on your interface is anywhere near said noise floor. However, we can also think of signal-to-noise in different stages, which is where it becomes more confusing.

Ultimately, guitar amplifiers usually have a terrible signal-to-noise ratio (for high-gain anyway). And pickups are really good at picking up unintended noise (RF, EMI, etc.). This was a useful test:



Another point, it appears that different companies and/or products have a different reference level when modeling their amps. I would recommend finding out what yours is (it should be in the manual). However, manuals can (and often) provide misguided or outdated advice. Some may tell you to get it hot enough just before clipping, and others to give yourself more headroom. Lately, I've been keeping my interface gain at unity and using the input gain in my amp sims to achieve the appropriate reference level. As always, use your ears. But also use your brain too. Just don't overthink all of this stuff like I probably have.

I also misinterpreted the video years ago and when watching it back, even what I said in my comment "Misha was using an old ass 2i2 that I guess probably needed the boost vs my interface that absolutely doesn't" was wrong He had all his processing in the AFX then was just setting the input on the interface to get that in to the computer, not plugging in directly.