Hugo Chavez dead at age 58

[Jakke]

BBC Latin America

Say what you want about him, but I am going to miss his crazy conspiracy theories..

 

[Semichastny]

I hope the people of Venezuela can finally find a path to democratic socialism.

 

[Mexi]

Agreed. I do not care for his authoritarian means of governance (though compared to other Latin American rulers that have been ex-military men, he was an angel lol) but he had a tremendous impact for latin america in general. his economic policies have given more independence to central and south american countries from American energy interests and fostered a deeper sense of solidarity between those countries. obviously, Chavez personally can't be responsible for all that, but I think symbolically, he was a strong leader for many people who saw him as a barrier between their way of life and "american neo-colonialism" through globalization and unregulated free markets

It'll be interesting to see what happens when Castro dies (I know he's not in power, but he is still a powerful symbol in latin america)

 

[Xaios]

Hunh, didn't see that coming. Was listening to the news at lunch, and they were still like "he's having complications." Now just a few hours later, this.

Gonna be an interesting time.

 

[LeonMaga]

Some people are like extremely heartbroken, i'm from Venezuela, and the country's in shock, Chavez did alot for the poor people here, he gave the country free health care for the first time ever and build these things called Misiones (Missions) where old people or people who never graduated can learn and actually get a degree!

 

[Alberto7]

As perhaps some of you know, I'm from Venezuela, and lived there most of my life (though I'm not sure most of you would remember me mentioning that on other threads ). I'm not going to engage in discussion about this publicly with anyone (I hope this to be the only comment I make on this thread. Shoot me a PM if you're interested in my personal opinion, and, if I gather the strength and the willingness to, I'll answer as best as I can. It's not an easy topic for me to talk about). However, what I AM going to do, is I'm going to try to see what is the general consensus in a forum whose members I regard highly. I am very curious to see what people have to say.

And, because I believe that stating something like that without giving at least an overview of what I think on the matter, I'm going to say that I am quite glad this happened. I'm glad to see that the source of so many people's suffering is gone, even though I wish it had happened differently. At the same time, that's not to say that it ends here, with his passing away. I'm scared (and very dangerously curious) to see what will happen next... his legacy is extremely strong. A whole generation of followers, born and raised "revolutionary." My single biggest wish is that a shitstorm doesn't ensue on the streets... things are horrible enough as they are.

 

[AliceLG]

Being also from Venezuela (3 consecutives posts from venezuelans, maybe a SSO first?) I will abstain from making this into a political issue. May he rest in peace and may his family and supporters find solace. Death comes to us all eventually. His legacy is a big one, whether it is good or bad only history will tell. This will be an interesting year for both Chavistas and the opposition when the aftermath of his death actually unfolds.

 

[renzoip]

While I wasn't completely pro-Chavez, I was never really bought all the negative propaganda that the Spanish corporate media did against him. He was a rather simple men, legitimately looking to empower the most marginalized sectors of Venezuelan society.

Nobody is perfect. RIP Chavez.

 

[Semichastny]

While I wasn't completely pro-Chavez, I was never really bought all the negative propaganda that the Spanish corporate media did against him. He was a rather simple men, legitimately looking to empower the most marginalized sectors of Venezuelan society.

Nobody is perfect. RIP Chavez.

While there are plenty of reasons to hate Chavez I kind of feel the same way. I can't think of a single person I know IRL who disliked him and had an educated opinion. It seems like people just regurgitated the hate filled speech on the news without ever bothering to form an objective opinion and understanding of him and his policies. Keep in mind we are from a country who has launched two political witch hunts towards people on his end of the poliical spectrum and had state legislature kick out socialists after they were democratically elected. Good ol' fashion "SOCIALISM IS EVIL!!11!!" rhetoric probably fuels this hate to a degree as well.

Edit: It also probably doesn't help that the United States' intelligence community and military have separately been involved in overthrowing democractically elected leaders and popular movements across Latin America. "Imperialism" isn't a vague and abstract term to South Americans as it is us. The following is no excuse for shaking hands with Gaddafi and the rest of the rouges gallery he was friends with, but if we are to be honest with ourselves these people might have justifiable reasons to hate us. I am not saying Chavez did, but we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss him because of the "he hates america" card.

"Chile was certainly not the first instance in which the United States government used its clandestine services to manipulate, undermine, or overthrow a fellow democracy. It had done so in many other places, including Italy in 1947-48, Iran in 1953, Guatemala in 1954, Indonesia in 1957-58, Brazil from 1961 to 1964, Greece from 1964 to 1974, South Korea from 1961 to 1987, and the Philippines in every year since it gained its independence from the United States in 1946. But Chile provides us with the first written record of a U.S. president ordering the overthrow of a democratically elected government—namely, the handwritten notes of CIA director Richard Helms reflecting the orders given to him by President Richard Nixon in the White House on September 15, 1970.39 Even the heavily censored CIA documents released to the Church Committee in 1975 led Senator Church to produce his own definition of “covert action.” It is a “semantic disguise for murder, coercion, blackmail, bribery, the spreading of lies, and consorting with known torturers and international terrorists.”40

From the moment the Kennedy administration came to power in 1961 until the overthrow and death of Chile’s president Salvador Allende on September 11, 1973, the CIA spent some $12 million on a massive “black” propaganda campaign to support Allende’s primary political opponent, Eduardo Frei, the candidate of the Christian Democratic Party, and to denigrate Allende as a stooge of the Soviet Union. In addition, the International Telephone and Telegraph Corporation (which owned the Chilean telephone system) and other American-owned businesses in Chile gave the CIA an extra $1.5 million to help discredit Allende. ITT properties in Chile, including two Sheraton Hotels, were worth at least $153 million. In July 1970, two months before Allende was elected president, John McCone, director of central intelligence from 1961 to 1965 and in 1970 a member of the board of directors of ITT, set up an appointment with then DCI Richard Helms. He offered money and cooperation from ITT “for the purpose of assisting any [U.S.] government plan ... to stop Allende.” ITT presented a plan “aimed at inducing economic collapse” in Chile.41"

 

[Chrisjd]

Funny how all the native Venezuelans in this thread have all moved away from their country to the likes of white europe and canada.

I can't give my opinion since I don't know THAT much about Chavez, except that the general consensus is that people are happy he's dead.

 

[LeonMaga]

I still live in Venezuela! Haha but yeah, most of the other Venezuelans in the post have moved away

 

[groph]

I hope the people of Venezuela can finally find a path to democratic socialism.

I really wish I knew more about the political history of the world south of the US. I know a bit of Mexican history but pretty much nothing else. I've read a little bit of Chomsky and he reports on clandestine US government-backed efforts to "manipulate" South American governments ostensibly so they may be more in line with US interests but that's about it.

It seems as though a lot of actual leftist leaders seem to swing to the dictatorial side. I wonder if that's out of some perceived necessity on their part; they can't leave the efficacy of their agendas completely up to the people because leftist governments are pretty rare in the world? Like they're afraid their cause will fail unless they have almost total control over it? I dunno. I'm not saying that all leftist leaders are doomed or predisposed to become dictators. Just talking out of my ass here.

This all being said I think it would be really cool/inspiring to see a democratic socialist nation actually form and succeed. Because this is instantly polarizing, to be clear I don't hate capitalism but I kind of like the idea of decentralized power and the major decision making process not being totally over my head. All governments that have ever existed that I'm aware of have controlled the economy in SOME way or another so "socialism" seems like more of a continuum, I guess.

Hopefully whoever replaces Chavez isn't a dick. That's basically all I can say with any certainty as I really know jack-all about that entire continental area.

 

[Semichastny]

I really wish I knew more about the political history of the world south of the US. I know a bit of Mexican history but pretty much nothing else. I've read a little bit of Chomsky and he reports on clandestine US government-backed efforts to "manipulate" South American governments ostensibly so they may be more in line with US interests but that's about it.

Guatemalans, Cubans, Brazilians, Argentines, Panamanians, Nicaraguans, Salvadorans, Chileans, and Grenadians have all had democratically elected leaders and popular movements suppressed.

Separately:

Operation Condor

It seems as though a lot of actual leftist leaders seem to swing to the dictatorial side. I wonder if that's out of some perceived necessity on their part; they can't leave the efficacy of their agendas completely up to the people because leftist governments are pretty rare in the world? Like they're afraid their cause will fail unless they have almost total control over it? I dunno. I'm not saying that all leftist leaders are doomed or predisposed to become dictators. Just talking out of my ass here.

Keep in mind the countries I brought up had democratically elected leftists and popular movements that were torn apart. Separately The Pink Tide has resulted in quiet a few leftist governments being elected, at points leaving maybe 5 countries who had right wing governments.

The left has many inherent enemies, the CIA, multi-nationals, the wealthy, the international banking system, etc. Left-wing systems require complete structural overhaul, but these groups are willing to fight dirty to prevent it. The CIA collaborated with private business to discredit Allende (they were even willing to destroy the Chilean economy), and also helped set up systems to purge communists from society. Recognizing that being in their area of the political spectrum is akin to wearing a bulls-eye some choose to embrace radicalism and just go for it, but that doesn't always end up working well. The rhetoric can replace reality, which leads to dangerous situations where dogmatic belief in a ideology can prevent itself from evolving to suit the needs of the economy. The Soviet Unions NEP presents possibly the best democratic socialist system (should we focus on making state owned industries co-operatives and the banking system accountable) if updated to reflect modern economic times.

We are in the throws of the fourth structural crisis of capitalism, the so-called "end of history" will come to a close. It is up to leftists to assume positions of power in business and banking if these ideas are to come to serious power.

 

[AliceLG]

Funny how all the native Venezuelans in this thread have all moved away from their country to the likes of white europe and canada.

I did emigrate to Europe in 2009, and I've been here in Germany since then, but that had absolutely nothing to do with the government or even life quality standards. To put it in an extremely cheesy way, I wanted to see the world and experience different cultures. I also decided that I will return to my country in the not-so-distant future, and that has also absolutely nothing to do with the government. The fact that Chavez died has no relevance in that decision, will not make me sell all my things right away and buy a one-way ticket to Caracas, and neither does the fact that in 30 days we might have a president with a different ideology.

I think "funny" is an unfortunate word. The venezuelan diaspora has grown significantly since 2000. In a country with almost 30 million people, over 1 million (educated guess) live elsewhere, with more than half belonging to the productive demographic. To put it in some sort of context, that would be like 20 million US citizens between the ages 18-49 with a professional qualified background choosing to live overseas. Or, God help us all, 60 million Chinese and 45 million Indians. And I'm not talking about people that go try their luck and wait tables/paint houses (Nothing wrong with that), but people that go to another country with a job contract in their hands. So yeah, I wouldn't call it funny.

 

[Mexi]

on the flipside, while the educated/professional classes have been disenfranchised, the poor/eldery have been given opportunities to escape lives free of hunger and to have access to education that was never seen possible before. Again, I can sympathize, a close family friend of mine emigrated from Venezuela (He used to be a doctor, now he's a lab assistant at some community college here) so I'm very much aware of the effect that dramatic economic/political changes can have an a economically stratified society. To that end, I would argue that that there would be a diaspora of impoverished Venezuelans if it were economically viable to do so (much easier to do in countries like Mexico). Needless to say, it is a difficult clash of fundamentally different ideologies, but I've generally been of the belief that governments should do their hardest to improve the lives of the greatest number of citizens, so if that results in the temporary displacement of professionals in order to improve the lives of the other 60-70% of citizens, then I support it.

I just think there needs to be a better balance of these changes or so that the effects of harsh economic transitions aren't disproportionately felt in the professional classes. Like many Latin American countries, I believe that the current Venezuelan gov't tried an experiment to see if things can be improved. I would say for the millions of Venezuelans that don't have the opportunity to post on these boards but whose lives have improved nonetheless, then things have indeed gotten better. It just really is about on what side of the fence you're on and how much you weigh the value of either side We'll have to wait and see what happens

 

[Alberto7]

As perhaps some of you know, I'm from Venezuela, and lived there most of my life (though I'm not sure most of you would remember me mentioning that on other threads ). I'm not going to engage in discussion about this publicly with anyone (I hope this to be the only comment I make on this thread. Shoot me a PM if you're interested in my personal opinion, and, if I gather the strength and the willingness to, I'll answer as best as I can. It's not an easy topic for me to talk about). However, what I AM going to do, is I'm going to try to see what is the general consensus in a forum whose members I regard highly. I am very curious to see what people have to say.

And, because I believe that stating something like that without giving at least an overview of what I think on the matter, I'm going to say that I am quite glad this happened. I'm glad to see that the source of so many people's suffering is gone, even though I wish it had happened differently. At the same time, that's not to say that it ends here, with his passing away. I'm scared (and very dangerously curious) to see what will happen next... his legacy is extremely strong. A whole generation of followers, born and raised "revolutionary." My single biggest wish is that a shitstorm doesn't ensue on the streets... things are horrible enough as they are.

So, I feel the need to amend my previous statement, and make some corrections... I got caught up in the moment and wrote without thinking thoroughly. I was touchy at that moment. I probably wouldn't have even made a comment otherwise. But alas, what's done is done, and now that it's been done, I feel the need for transparency. So here goes:

I am not happy because he's passed. I believe we're all human first, and every death must be respected. I feel for his family and his close ones. Even for his followers. Pain is pain, and it affects us and our enemies in the same way. It doesn't hurt any less for them. With that said, I've been lead to believe from extensive experience, both personal and from my family/closest friends who are still there, that a BIG change is needed in Venezuela, and he was not set on bringing such change, nor is his government. This event just gives somewhat of a window to bring such change. However, some see this as a mere fantasy and/or a dream, as the current government is the one most likely to continue in power, and because other candidates (regardless of party and/or ideology) might just bring more of the same or not change things at all.

I'd also like to mention, that most of the opposition disgusts me as well. They're just as, if not more, irrational than the other side, and they do nothing but fuel the fire ever bigger. It's really actually very shitty, because you can't really talk about it with many people without getting reactions of extremism. You really feel deprived, as you get attacked from both sides every time you open your mouth to make a remark about a comment and/or a statement. It's one of the reasons why I usually don't talk about the topic with anyone, and the reason why I dislike politics so much; I've been exposed to its corrupt and hateful antics (from both sides) for most of my life, and I'm fed up with it. It's become almost a sort of phobia for me to talk about it.

Another thing that I want to say: absolutely feel free to disagree with me. My opinions about this man, his government, and the opposition are based on the facts I have managed to gather from seeing things personally from an "inside" point of view (while living there and from my relatives there, mostly), and it will probably never be changed by anyone. I've experienced enough to firmly believe what I believe. Still though, somebody who thinks differently might have seen things that I haven't. Anything's possible. We can agree to disagree. I am not set on changing anyone else's point of view. It makes me unhappy, and it makes them unhappy. So I just refrain from even talking about it. I try very hard to never bring it up. As long as we don't mention it, I think we'll get along just fine


PS: I am sorry for getting a bit long-winded. It's just that it concerns a topic that touches me on the most personal and intimate of levels, and I don't choose to talk about it often at all.

 

[eddiewarlock]

Agreed. I do not care for his authoritarian means of governance (though compared to other Latin American rulers that have been ex-military men, he was an angel lol) but he had a tremendous impact for latin america in general. his economic policies have given more independence to central and south american countries from American energy interests and fostered a deeper sense of solidarity between those countries. obviously, Chavez personally can't be responsible for all that, but I think symbolically, he was a strong leader for many people who saw him as a barrier between their way of life and "american neo-colonialism" through globalization and unregulated free markets

It'll be interesting to see what happens when Castro dies (I know he's not in power, but he is still a powerful symbol in latin america)

Man, i am Venezuelan, and that is not true. I knnow that's what the media says but it's not true. We are even more dependent on imports. Hell, we are even importing gasoline! and we have more oil than Saudi Arabia.

Everything is imported, specially, from the USA, but has no problems in saying there's an economic war against Venezuela, which is BULLSHIT, the USA still buys oil from us, and we buy whatever the hell we want from them.

Chavez has left a legacy of hate, intolerance and an economic disaster in Venezuela.

In fact, i have just moved to Spain, just in time before he died, and since i am against the goverment they have me in a black list.

I am in that black list because i exercised a constitutional right which was to sign to activate a referendum to revocate Chavez' term back in 2004.

They've denied me jobs and called me a facist and whatnot.

Everytime i leave the country the do something to me at the airport.

This last time, the nazi onal guard said i was carrying drugs, they scanned my guitar 3 times ( it is a guitar i built, a copy of a camo Max Cavalera warlock) and kept saying that the truss rod was cocaine, so the motherfuckers drilled three holes in my guitar, they made me watch it while they laughed their asses off and said " this is because you're against Chavez"

BTW i am not happy he died. This will be for the worse, his followers are fanatics, willing to die and kill anybody for him.

The "revolution" is NOT a political movement, it is a religious movement, and we all know how dangerous are religious fanatics.

I believe this will end up in a civil war.

Chavez goverment has more to do with a fascist goverment and with a leftist one. Personality cult and hate included.

PD: I am sorry to say this, but what Leon is saying is typical of a Chavez follower who doesn't know the truth. I don't want a flaming war, so if he thinks that way that's is fine, he is entitled to his opinion, and can like Chavez all he wants, but all i can say is that he WRONG.

Venezuelans have free health care since, at least 1958 ( same thing with universitary education, completely FREE since 1958) My mother is a doctor and has worked in hospitals since 1970 ( and you tell me how in a country with NO free universitary education, the daughter of an oil industry worker who got paid pennies could manage to go to med school, if it wasn't for free) In Public hospitals, which were free and she can explain to ANYONE how the venezuelan health care system have deteriorated.

The Chavez goverment brought thousands of cuban doctors who know jack shit and the govermenent started what the guy above repeated: There was no free public health care. Not true!!! And i know this because i have had to fix their fuck ups thousands of times, and so has my brother, who is studying a master's degree in traumatology.

The truth is that STILL to this day if you go to a hospital is a nightmare, there are not enough medicines, and a lot of them will have to be bought by the patient.

And i know this personally because my brother is a doctor, i am a dentist with a master's degree in endodontics and did my share in a hospital's maxillofacial surgery unit, and because my uncle is sick with cancer, and to operate him, we needed to gather around 10.000 US $ which we don't have.

Yes, in Venezuela, doctors and dentist don't make lots of money.

Again, i don't want a shitfest, BUT that is the truth.

PD: I also agree that the venezuelan oposition sucks ass.

 

[eddiewarlock]

Short except of a documentary done by the Norwegian TV in Venezuela.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcg9cBf9RG8

it talks a bit about the conditions in hospitals

Now, you watch this: Done by a propaganda group. Who do you believe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrsDwgzRAtw

The holes they opened on my guitar. I didn't even have the time topolish it's finish, i was gonna do that when i arrived to Spain...

Programmed electricty blackouts because the idiots stole all the money and didn't invest in improving the electricity generation system:

Took from my parent's house:

Personality cult, that is me, in Caracas.

My little brother and Adrian from At The Gates when they played in Venezuela and we showed them around. Notice the pictures on buildings.

One of them say " heart of the venezuelan people"

 

[Ayo7e]

Chavez just took advantage of the ignorance of the people and gave them what they wanted to hear, as simple as that.

 

[Sunyata]

^
Doesn't that sum up every government ever?