Ibanez is dicking us around.

[The Dark Wolf]

Money doesn't talk; it screams. It sucks for those of us who like the really nice stuff, but that's how it works. Fortunately, we now have the 'net and can now buy stuff from all over the world.

Oh, you're right. But that doesn't mean the braniacs in marketing, sales, etc. and executive positions in these major companies always make the RIGHT decisions, and that's where you go wrong (I think) in assuming Ibanez does (your posting record seems to indicate this). In fact, it's likely the bigger the corporation, the more inept its leadership (Enron, anyone?) Would the US market support these guitars? Like anything, it depends. Marketing and trends of course are a HUGE part of it, but to just say, "That's the way it is." like it's a static reality? Uh uh. Completely unrealistic. Right now, the US trend is Gibson, Gibson, Gibson. Mid 90's to early 2000's, PRS, PRS, PRS. But that's what's marketed so strenuously, and that's what the kids (driving force of the music market) see on their heroes. I'm waiting for when Strats come back in vogue.

So, in short, you're right I think. Marketing 101. But you're failing to account for Marketing 102. PT Barnum understood this. Bill Gates understands it. A lot of demand is CREATED. Luck, timing, perserverence. But Ianez just says, "Fuck it." to the US market for nifty high-end guitars. Drop a little worm in the water, and uh oh, no nibbles, buh-bye! Probably why Gibson and domestic makers kill'em here.

But never apologize to me, Kev. You're a super-excellent guy, and your opinion (even if I disagree) if worth a million bucks to me.

(Except when you say take a little jaunt down to Columbus. )

 

[Kevan]

Wolf- Thanks for the compliments. They're appreciated.

I don't think my posting record is clear enough. I've *never* said, "Bring in more cheap-o models! I can't get enough of them!"

Businesses are in it to make money. So, I'm not sure if the executive office ineptness starts with being so high up in the clouds that they've forgotten about the actual the business/market, or if it comes straight from greed. My guess is the latter, with a sprink-smidge of the former.

Your hook/worm analogy works well- they test the waters for 10 seconds, no bites, and yank the whole thing out, pack up the boat, and go home (and turn on the Fishing Network). That's happened when the J-Customs first came out in '96-'97. Now, the rest of the world get J-C's, and we get a couple basic Prestige models. Why? Because that's what the market called for. It's jacked. I don't like it. I don't think I've ever posted that I like it. I did my best to scream my voice back in '97, and picked up a few J-C's, and a UV. I know others did too. But 200 of us, versus 200,000 other voices screaming, "Thanks for the $189 guitar!" beat us all out.

I guess my lack of posting about how a business, large, medium or small, should be run is my down side. Ditching locking posts? I'll be first in line to say that's a bad idea. I didn't bitch up a storm because the decison to do that wasn't up to me. It was some asshat bean-counter in some cubicle somewhere attempting to gleam brillance in the office. How is me putting that on the front page of my site going to make any difference at all, esp. with a predeliction of massive negativity coming from the site?

While we, the high-end guitar lover, would like a catalog filled with $1000+ guitars, the market just plain won't support it. Gibson and Fender have been king and queen for many years now (you pick who is what), and PRS is the court jester who has slipped in and stole a crown while the other guys were putting out the same ol'-same ol'. [Sorry for the Don McLean reference; I just heard the song again today]. Ibanez isn't as far back as you think; maybe #3 or #4 on the list.

To maintain it's spot in the market, Ibanez has to sell guitars. Lots of guitars. While you and I and every other member of this forum will buy 3 of each J-Custom, that's not even a drop in the bucket compared to what the RG-120's thru RG-350's bring in.

I'm not sure if that's Marketing 101, 102 or 383. I'm just glad I'm not in charge of it. I'd hate to try and manage it, and I'd hate all the flack from even doing it. The only job with less thanks and more hassle is being a moderator over on that *other* forum. And I speak from experience.

Instead of bitching about stuff, I look for solutions to the problem. In this case, folks should order from Japan. It will take a while (thick skulls in executive offices), but they will eventually see that more and more high-end guitars are being sent to the US. With any luck, this will throw up dollar signs in the execs eyes and at some meeting, in some boardroom, somewhere, someone will say, "Hey- these guys are buying a lot of high-end stuff from our Japanese dealers. How do we get in on that cash?".

Will it happen overnight? Not a chance.

Can it happen? Yes.


"Bill Gates is worth $100,000,000,000, and apparently a decent haircut costs $100,000,000,001." -Dennis Miller

 

[The Dark Wolf]

You make great points ad I agree with 99% of it.

BUT! Making a blanket judgement that "the market won't support it", well, again, that really depends. The early IBM bigwigs said "who'd want a compter in their house?! HAW haw hah!" But along comes Steve Jobs/Wozniak, and along comes Bill Gates. Viola! Everyone wants a computer. The "market" ain't some static monster that just IS.

If Ibanez did it right, I'm confident a market for high-end guitars al la Ibanez could be sustainable here in the US. Is it gonna happen with the 10-second teaser? Hell no. But it can happen. It took PRS years to build up the reputation. Ibanez shoots themselves in the foot when they discontinue decent guitars for cheaper crap. Will they sell? Sure. But COULD they feasibly tap into/create a demand for better guitars? Absolutely. "The market doesn't exist." Pish posh. Maybe not in the present marketing strategy (not saying that's everything, but hey, it's alot), but it's definitely not a certain no. They've come a LOOOOONG way on Steve Vai's back. Time for some fresh blood I think.

And you're welcome. I've always thought very highly of you, and your reasoned, intelligent discussions. I thought it unfair how Rich and Glen would bait you, then deny you opportunity to respond, while being so dismissive, so arrogant. Ah well, water under the bridge. You have a great new product set to go to market, and they have jealousy. I salute you.

 

[Digital Black]

USA marketing - Over hype junk to the under 18 crowd. Label it as "extreme" and American lemmings slather cash all over it.

 

[nikt]

That vintage violin RG8127F is dead sexy, but 250,000 yen ($2,313.52 US) is a spicy meatball. Still want it though

I will make You happy, I've mailed them not long ago (2weeks) and the actuall price for is RG8127F/BX or VV(with an original hard shell case) ---
192,000YEN
Shipping fee (insurance included) --- 18,000YEN (to poland I've asked)

regards
nikt

 

[rx]

it's not only ibanez that keeps the golds and exports lead, korea does it too. you're not gonna believe how much guitars that are kept in the country are so much better than the exported shit. no to mention even cheaper.

 

[Hawksmoor]

it's not only ibanez that keeps the golds and exports lead, korea does it too. you're not gonna believe how much guitars that are kept in the country are so much better than the exported shit. no to mention even cheaper.

I smell a bussines idea brewing...

 

[Jeff]

This is an instant where I wish Kevan was wrong.....but he's not. kiddies with their parents in tow are the ones that buy the most guitars each year, not us. Overall, "enthusiasts" like us account for a small percentage of their business.

Sure, it'd be cool to have hardtail Prestige 6 and 7 strings, J-Custom flametop 7's, etc. But they'd sit, and wouldnt sell very quick.

Having the unfortunate privelage (sp?) of working at GC, they sell more Squires and Jam Packs than any other guitar in there. They've got 2 JPMs, a J Custom, a JS1200, and two VWH's. But it's the Jam Packs that fly out the door.

 

[SevenatoR]

OK...then riddle me this....

ESP somehow justifies a "custom shop"...their prices are insane, but it's still there and running. I don't know how they have it set up. Whether it is it's own separate entity or whether they just build customs out of stuff they would have already had being produced in their regular production runs. Of course, this would fall under "anything is possible for a price". Maybe there's a happy medium between crappy GC "Sale of the Century" guitars and a full-on custom shop.

BUT...I fail to see the logic in not making higher end guitars available to the U.S. Ever heard of PRS?? There was no such thing as an SE model Paul Reed Smith for years. I understand the economics and business sense of having less expensive models available, but PRS was built on high-quality, relatively expensive guitars.

I don't know where I'm going with all this...I think I need some caffeine, as it's still kinda early. I guess the bottom line is I just think it's stupid. But then I'm sure Ishibashi doesn't mind the current arrangement, either.

 

[rx]

i don't thikn ESP's custom shop guitars are made for mass production. they only make them when a dealer orders them. (???)

 

[Drew]

"Bill Gates is worth $100,000,000,000, and apparently a decent haircut costs $100,000,000,001." -Dennis Miller

You know, in his defense... There are a LOT of surprisingly attractive girls who have a thing for really smart-yet-dorky guys. Add a few hundred million in there, and it's a pretty irrisistable package. I think Gates may be smarter than you're giving him credit for, Kevan...

My take on this is Ibanez is pretty much fucked from the get-go in the states. They used to have a reputation for making great "shred" guitars, thanks to Vai and Satch (and a handful of others), but that bubble burst, and these days guitars with pointy headstocks are about as cool as, um, Kevan, give me a good analogy, you're always good for that. Gibson and Fender have brand recognition back from when everything else affordable on the market pretty much blew. Paul Reed Smith should be kissing the ground Santana walks on - he basically got PRS's "in" with the guitar god hero worship community, and then manmaged to sucessfully transition that to a reputation for great "metal" guitars.

I can't count the times that I've watched a father walk into a chain store with his 15-year old son and say "He wants to try a PRS with a Dual Rectifier." It's just the "in" setup. Ibanez's are considered good entry level guitars, but sadly, the "prestige" and j-custom lines are basically unknown (and Ibanez's recent devaluation of the prestige, first making all japanese guitars and then adding a korean line really isn't helping that).

When people hear "Ibanez," they think of RG470's and the 80's. they're trying, but I think they realized that they can sell americans a lot of shit at a profit, and then sell small to moderate numbers of quality guitars abroad.

It's just a PR debacle that they've really got no reason to fix - i mean, the bottom line is they're moving numbers, so why try to trade quantity for quality?

-D

 

[Regor]

And it doesn't make things any easier for Ibanez when GC sales people call them "I-Been-Hads"

I personally don't see anything wrong with my 7420, which would be considered on the 'lower' end of the 7-string Ibanez market. Plays just the same as my 2127X as far as I can tell. Trem is a bit better, but I don't use the whammy to the point where I 'need' a good trem. I just don't like the way the fine tuning pegs touch a protruding piece from the saddle, as opposed to my ESP's trem where the tuning peg touches the string lock screw. IMO, those ones stay in tune better.


That being said, I'd never buy a 6-string Ibanez. I'd rather have a Jackson.

 

[MyOwnEffigy]

As an employee at a local music store, same one HateBreeder works at, I can tell you the high end guitars are great. They're phenomonal, however, that doesn't make them sell. We specialize in custom shops and special order products, but that doesn't mean they're flying out of the store. More often than not, the "special orders" are more like an off set of strings, like flatwound Fender stainless steel bass strings or a ligature for some alto sax that's just the cat's ass.

We offer a Jackson Custom Shop program and carry many USA Jackson guitars. Do we sell either of them? Very rarely. In six months, I've seen two USA Jacksons go. But in the same six months I've probably seen about a dozen Squier SE-100 Affinity Strat packs go and about a dozen or so of the Ibanez bass and guitar packs. They just outsell them. And the myth of "Everyone should begin on acoustic." That hurts too because we normally wind up selling acoustics to novices. As a side note, to start out on acoustics is like eating a horrible dinner and being told you'll get pie after a couple months of eating feces on a plate. I am not a fan of acoustics, personally, and I believe that they deter people from playing since I've yet to play one that plays NEARLY as well as my electrics. Even Taylors and Martins.

My point though, people who want Custom Shops are a dying breed. Not just because the market is that way. Think about it, there's no real "new" guitar heroes. With hardcore bands, emo bands, and rap-rock, its no wonder there's no one craving a well playing instrument, because there's no well playing bands. Don't believe me? Turn your radio on, check out some alternative rock, its an alternative to good now. So, we just must idly wait until a musician of ability strikes the scene again and gets people excited about learning guitar and needing a great sounding or playing guitar. That's where I see the issue to be.

 

[SevenatoR]

i don't thikn ESP's custom shop guitars are made for mass production. they only make them when a dealer orders them. (???)

Yeah, true. My point there was to ask why Ibanez doesn't have a custom shop as an alternative to production runs of higher quality guitars. ESP's is apparently alive and well....so if they don't want to do longer runs, why not have a custom shop as an option? Keep the employee numbers down maybe to even just a couple of guys...I don't see how it couldn't be viable. Of course, they're already producing the damned guitars. They just won't sell them in the U.S., so I guess my argument is over the wrong issue...

 

[Kevan]

If it is indeed cool, then try:
"It's as cool as as the boards in a Cray T90/32."

If it's not cool, try:
"It's as cool as the flyer parents get telling them about Michael Jackson visiting their local day care center."

I think Gates may be smarter than you're giving him credit for

Not a chance in hell.

 

[Shawn]

You know, in his defense... There are a LOT of surprisingly attractive girls who have a thing for really smart-yet-dorky guys. Add a few hundred million in there, and it's a pretty irrisistable package. I think Gates may be smarter than you're giving him credit for, Kevan...

My take on this is Ibanez is pretty much fucked from the get-go in the states. They used to have a reputation for making great "shred" guitars, thanks to Vai and Satch (and a handful of others), but that bubble burst, and these days guitars with pointy headstocks are about as cool as, um, Kevan, give me a good analogy, you're always good for that. Gibson and Fender have brand recognition back from when everything else affordable on the market pretty much blew. Paul Reed Smith should be kissing the ground Santana walks on - he basically got PRS's "in" with the guitar god hero worship community, and then manmaged to sucessfully transition that to a reputation for great "metal" guitars.

I can't count the times that I've watched a father walk into a chain store with his 15-year old son and say "He wants to try a PRS with a Dual Rectifier." It's just the "in" setup. Ibanez's are considered good entry level guitars, but sadly, the "prestige" and j-custom lines are basically unknown (and Ibanez's recent devaluation of the prestige, first making all japanese guitars and then adding a korean line really isn't helping that).

When people hear "Ibanez," they think of RG470's and the 80's. they're trying, but I think they realized that they can sell americans a lot of shit at a profit, and then sell small to moderate numbers of quality guitars abroad.

It's just a PR debacle that they've really got no reason to fix - i mean, the bottom line is they're moving numbers, so why try to trade quantity for quality?

-D

I've also seen too many people buying Korean made Ibanez' at least here in ME.

 

[Vegetta]

Yup, it's Hoshino and Chesbro, the other Ibanez distributor. They decide what will sell, and what won't.

Kinda like Nissan USA, who decides whether or not the Skyline will sell here.

well the skyline is right hand drive only (would take a major retooling to make left drive-US version)

But as for Hoshino yeha they pretty much suck

I wish the US custom shop would open up for the general public again

 

[The Dark Wolf]

OK...then riddle me this....

ESP somehow justifies a "custom shop"...their prices are insane, but it's still there and running. I don't know how they have it set up. Whether it is it's own separate entity or whether they just build customs out of stuff they would have already had being produced in their regular production runs. Of course, this would fall under "anything is possible for a price". Maybe there's a happy medium between crappy GC "Sale of the Century" guitars and a full-on custom shop.

BUT...I fail to see the logic in not making higher end guitars available to the U.S. Ever heard of PRS?? There was no such thing as an SE model Paul Reed Smith for years. I understand the economics and business sense of having less expensive models available, but PRS was built on high-quality, relatively expensive guitars.

I don't know where I'm going with all this...I think I need some caffeine, as it's still kinda early. I guess the bottom line is I just think it's stupid. But then I'm sure Ishibashi doesn't mind the current arrangement, either.

This is my point exactly. The so-called 'market' isn't some inflexible entity with immutable rules. It's insanely flexible, but in odd ways. So, while on one hand, Kev is absolutely right, on another, he's wrong.

And Gates isn't so much smart (he is, but not THAT smart) as persistent, unscrupulous (business-wise), and lucky. That's the formula for success more often than not it seems.

 

[Chris]

And Gates isn't so much smart (he is, but not THAT smart) as persistent, unscrupulous (business-wise), and lucky. That's the formula for success more often than not it seems.

That's exactly how I got laid in College.

 

[Digital Black]

well the skyline is right hand drive only (would take a major retooling to make left drive-US version)

But as for Hoshino yeha they pretty much suck

I wish the US custom shop would open up for the general public again

You can still import a right drive version. Or there is a custom shop in California that will do a retrofit. If you got that kind of cash to buy one-importing and setting it up for ODOT is nothing but a small speedbump..