I'm new to this, so this is probably a dumb question.

[Dusty201087]

Ok, so I'm reading my copy of "Music Theory for Dummies" book I got for x-mas, and it's really great. I've been playing music for a long time but never knew theory, and it's opened up a lot of new doors, and I'm not even halfway through the book!

But anyway, I was playing with some triads with an added 7th last night, and I was wondering, what would E harmonic minor arpeggio be called (with the seventh?) Would it be written as Em(maj7th)?

Sorry if this is really dumb/newbish. My options were here or ultimate guitar, and tbh the UG community gets on my nereves a lot of the time. (Not all of them are bad though )

 

[TonalArchitect]

Although the lines can be pretty blurry between scales and chords, Harmonic minor is a scale, not a chord. Harmonic minor has chords not found in natural minor, but I still wouldn't call them harmonic minor arpeggios, unless you mean specifically chords derived from the harmonic minor scale.

Clear as mud?

The short version: a harmonic minor is not a chord name like major seventh is.

In answer to your question, it depends on what the chord is without the seventh (e.g. major or minor) and whether the seventh is natural or flatted.

If it's an E minor chord (E G B) with a major seventh (E G B D#), then the chord is called E minor major seventh, and is written Em(maj7).

That's probably the chord you were playing.

For the sake of a long-assed post, if you were playing an E major with a natural seventh, then it would just be Emaj7 (E G# B D#).

If it were an E minor chord with a flat seven, then the chord would be Em7 (E G B D)

And if it were an E major chord with a flat seven, then it would be a dominant seven E7 (E G# B D). You may recognize this chord structure as the freakin' life-blood of jazz.

And yes, classical harmony and stuff (V7-I), I know.

 

[Dusty201087]

Although the lines can be pretty blurry between scales and chords, Harmonic minor is a scale, not a chord. Harmonic minor has chords not found in natural minor, but I still wouldn't call them harmonic minor arpeggios, unless you mean specifically chords derived from the harmonic minor scale.

Clear as mud?

The short version: a harmonic minor is not a chord name like major seventh is.

In answer to your question, it depends on what the chord is without the seventh (e.g. major or minor) and whether the seventh is natural or flatted.

If it's an E minor chord (E G B) with a major seventh (E G B D#), then the chord is called E minor major seventh, and is written Em(maj7).

That's probably the chord you were playing.

For the sake of a long-assed post, if you were playing an E major with a natural seventh, then it would just be Emaj7 (E G# B D#).

If it were an E minor chord with a flat seven, then the chord would be Em7 (E G B D)

And if it were an E major chord with a flat seven, then it would be a dominant seven E7 (E G# B D). You may recognize this chord structure as the freakin' life-blood of jazz.

And yes, classical harmony and stuff (V7-I), I know.

Thanks that helped and I was right, yay!

Tell me about it! I play in my schools jazz band and now that I'm actually learning about how to build chords etc dominant sevens seem to be all I ever do for jazz band

 

[TonalArchitect]

Yeah, you better like Dominant sevens, although you might get a breeze of refreshment in the form of an altered dominant seven.



Also, don't stress too much about the names. They're only useful when they're common and you need to share them. Our system of naming is good, and with words like clusters and such for stuff it can't cover, we can name most anything, but

e----0----
B----6----
G----0----
D----3----
A----5----
E----1----

I defy you to name this chord.

 

[Dusty201087]

Yeah, you better like Dominant sevens, although you might get a breeze of refreshment in the form of an altered dominant seven.



Also, don't stress too much about the names. They're only useful when they're common and you need to share them. Our system of naming is good, and with words like clusters and such for stuff it can't cover, we can name most anything, but

e----0----
B----6----
G----0----
D----3----
A----5----
E----1----

I defy you to name this chord.

What the fuck is that?!?!?

I'm staying in my fantasy world where that doesn't exist

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

Starting from the bass, you have F, D, F, G, F, and E. I don't know how to write what I'm trying to say, but here goes: Dm11(No 5) in first inversion. F is the third, D is the tonic, G is the eleventh (or four; could be a suspension), and E is the ninth. There's no seventh (C) or fifth (A).

Could also be Em(min9)(No 5) in fourth inversion. Extended harmony rocks (jazzes?).

 

[TonalArchitect]

Don't you remember that chord from the "Hardest Chords" thread, SW?

It could also be a G7add13(no3), I've never been a fan of giving chords huge names like Fm13 and then saying it lacks two or three of the degrees; that's almost one whole chord less (if it's two)!

Technically, I guess you could also call it a diatonic cluster-- I probably just invented a new term, but you see what I mean-- since it contains the consecutive D minor (or a bunch of other scales) tones D, E, F, and G.

But I still feel like it makes my point, that it doesn't fit as well into our naming system as do simple triads and their complete extensions.


All those names are fine.

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

I have so many chords in front of me, I can't remember one from the other. Even triads get confusing; I've heard the suggestion that a iii is, in some contexts, a IM7(No 1). I can easily see vi9 substituting for IM7, too.

Which reminds me, TA, one of the last things discussed in my history class was a concept called "pandiatonicism", which I thought you might find interesting. The name sounds scarier than it really is: it's the use of nonfunctional diatonic harmony, like your "diatonic clluster" idea.

 

[TonalArchitect]

I have so many chords in front of me, I can't remember one from the other. Even triads get confusing; I've heard the suggestion that a iii is, in some contexts, a IM7(No 1). I can easily see vi9 substituting for IM7, too.

o_0

I guess I see where they're coming from, but damn, music theory really gets scary sounding when that stuff starts happening.

Also, it really makes me want to walk up to my friends who take Orchestra and say that.

Their music theory goes to about intervals and rhythmic values, so they'd either laugh and shrug it off, or punch me.

Which reminds me, TA, one of the last things discussed in my history class was a concept called "pandiatonicism", which I thought you might find interesting. The name sounds scarier than it really is: it's the use of nonfunctional diatonic harmony, like your "diatonic clluster" idea.

An interesting concept, and a neat alternative to atonality for dissonance.

It really reminds me of how important the rules are to learn, and how important it is to be able to break them.

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

The examples we looked at were Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring and Benjamin Britten's "Agnus Dei" from the War Requiem suite, which sounds very cool if you can get a recording that showcases the orchestra (most that I've heard have the tenor at the front of the mix. Yech). The Britten piece has bitonality going on between B minor and C major (B locrian, really) and the last chord is an F#.

Part of the discussion was about pandiatonicism as an alternative to atonality, so you hit it on the head there.

 

[henrebotha]

Which reminds me, TA, one of the last things discussed in my history class was a concept called "pandiatonicism", which I thought you might find interesting. The name sounds scarier than it really is: it's the use of nonfunctional diatonic harmony, like your "diatonic clluster" idea.

Wait, explain that a bit more slowly?

 

[TonalArchitect]

Wait, explain that a bit more slowly?

Don't let the words get to you. What "Pandiatonicism" means is that you use the regular major and minor scales, but without traditional use of harmony.

Meaning, instead of the typical progressions and voicings in classical harmony, you do whatever the hell you want, which can be used to get some pretty dissonant sounds.

I think Stravinsky used it for a while (I'm not too familiar with him), but I think The Rite of Spring is pandiatonic, but it's also polytonal, meaning that two different voices play in different keys at the same time. I think it's C major and F# major.

I'm not 100% sure, though.

Anyway the "diatonic cluster" was just a term I used/half-made-up to describe that chord, which contains the notes D, E, F, and G.

I used the word 'cluster' because it describes a chord made of a bunch of seconds, which are super dissonant. The reason I used it was because 'cluster' implies that the chord tones will be really close together.

I threw 'diatonic' over it because all those notes are from a normal diatonic scale (it could be C major, D minor, or a couple of other things).

So it's consecutive notes (cluster) from a regular major/minor scale (diatonic).

 

[henrebotha]

So, you mean like you would write a piece in C major, using only the notes from that scale, but building chords like C E F A B?

I can see how that would lead to a really interesting kind of sound.

Also I actually have The Rite of Spring but I haven't listened to it yet... bad of me.

And of course it's C and F#

 

[TonalArchitect]

So, you mean like you would write a piece in C major, using only the notes from that scale, but building chords like C E F A B?

I can see how that would lead to a really interesting kind of sound.

Yeah, that and having weird chord progressions, all that stuff.

And of course it's C and F#

Always those damn tritones.

 

[Mr. Big Noodles]

The Rite is a beautiful piece. I use it to wake myself up on exam days

I personally think Antal Dorati's recording with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra is the best available. My copy was released on the London label, along with a good recording of Petrushka. I can't stand Bernstein's version, and I think I heard Maazel do it, which I was not impressed with.