Is "tone wood" overblown?

[sevenstringj]

For example, has anyone ever done a FAIR comparison between basswood and alder? In other words, play 2 guitars that are EXACTLY the same except for the body wood?

I once played a Jackson Soloist and an ESP Custom Shop Horizon through the same amp. They both sport a JB in the bridge, both had maple necks with ebony fret boards, but the Horizon had a fixed bridge and a mahogany body with maple top, and the Jackson (as everyone knows) had a alder body and Floyd. There was ZERO difference in the sound.

I have a Jackson Soloist and an ESP/LTD H-207. Two very different guitars, wood-wise. Both have a JB in the bridge, and both sound the same.

I'm wondering if the whole "mahogany is thicker and warmer" or "ash is brighter and punchier" and other ubiquitous characterizations came about more because of the types of guitars that featured those woods, rather than the woods themselves. Fender-style guitars have a 25.5" scale and are typically strung with 9's, while Gibson-style guitars have a 24.75" scale and are typically strung with thicker strings. To me, THAT makes all the difference. But people look at Gibsons made with mahogany, and fenders made with alder and figure it's the wood.

Another major factor is the pickups. Strats traditionally have single coils, while Gibsons have humbuckers, hence the poppy versus warm sounds, which are often attributed to alder vs mahogany. Another example, Jacksons tend to be fitted with Duncans, and Ibanez's fitted with Dimarzios. I've had Duncans and Dimarzios in the same guitar, and the Duncans are generally tighter while the Dimarzios are generally looser--another common "difference" between alder and basswood.

Of course, it's hard to really compare woods. I can't remember the last time I saw a Gibson-style guitar made of ash or alder. One really good comparison would be the Soloist SL2H versus the Soloist SL2H-MAH. Same exact guitar except for mahogany/maple (albeit a very very thin maple top, perhaps even just a veneer) versus alder.

OK, I'll stop rambling. Thoughts?

 

[ZeroSignal]

It's not overblown. My RG8427F has a lot more low mids than my RG1527.

My meatiest sounding guitar is my mahogany body AX7221 and S7320, then my RG8427F (but that's a lot clearer thanks to the DS7, maple top and the 1meg ohm pots) and the RG1527 coming in last in terms of teh br00talz lower mid range.

I've always found that DiMarzios are tighter than most Duncans I've used. But hey, that's just me...

 

[JesseTheMachine]

Actually what you said makes alot of sense, I never thought of it that way before. I just always figured because the Les Paul weighed more, it had a heavier tone hehe.

But I think there is something to be said regarding the material that the bridge is anchored into, in whatever fashion. On some styles of guitars, like those with tune-o-matics or PRS style bridges*, the wood's resonance would resound through the bridge and wood, affecting the string's vibration. That would be perceived as a difference in tone, wouldn't it?

Edit: or any type of bridge, but to a smaller extent

 

[I_infect]

I own basswood, mahogany, and ash guitars all with a variety of active pickups. Even w/ actives there is a difference... a 707 in a Damien 7(basswood) sounds different than in a Hellraiser(mahogany) and yet again in a Loomis(ash).
Bridges definitely affect tone as well, string through TOMs sound alot more bassy to me than string through fixed or Floyds.

One of the best sounding bridges I've heard/played(but was massive) was the Gibraltar bridge on the Ibanez Mike Mushok Baritone. The pickups and bridge on that were just beautiful.

 

[SnowfaLL]

I find theres a difference.. I never really liked the tone of any mahogany guitar Ive owned, but Alder always blows me away.. regardless of construction/pickups/amps.. so I dunno. Cant be all coincidence.

 

[sevenstringj]

My RG8427F has a lot more low mids than my RG1527.

The RG1527 comes with Ibanez pickups. Doesn't the RG8427 come with a Tonezone and an Air Norton? Which are both geared towards the low and mid-low range.

My meatiest sounding guitar is my mahogany body AX7221 and S7320, then my RG8427F (but that's a lot clearer thanks to the DS7, maple top and the 1meg ohm pots) and the RG1527 coming in last in terms of teh br00talz lower mid range.

Isn't the AX7221 a short-scale guitar? There's your meat right there. Not sure about the S7320, but it does have different pickups than all the others, right? Wonder how they'd sound in one of the other guitars.

I own basswood, mahogany, and ash guitars all with a variety of active pickups. Even w/ actives there is a difference... a 707 in a Damien 7(basswood) sounds different than in a Hellraiser(mahogany) and yet again in a Loomis(ash).
Bridges definitely affect tone as well, string through TOMs sound alot more bassy to me than string through fixed or Floyds.

That seems like a fair comparison, other than the different bridges... TOM, licensed Floyd, OFR. Then again, I didn't hear a diff between the Jackson Soloist and ESP Horizon, both with diff woods and bridges, but same PU's. Do you have the same exact strings on all of them? How do they differ in tone?

Well, besides the SL2H vs SL2H-MAH comparison I mentioned, another great comparison will be the RG1527 vs RG1527M. Same exact guitar, except rosewood vs maple fret board!

But generally, I'm thinking wood is not worth agonizing over because the differences are subtle at best. Far bigger factors affecting tone seem to be strings, pick, touch, scale length, and of course pickups.

 

[Mattayus]

Ya know, I often question my own pedantic choices even with things like pickups, let alone the wood.

The sort of tone changes we're talking here are so unnoticeable to the untrained ear, it's literally for your own pickiness and nothing else

For example - A pickup swap in some guitars is essential, because of the output being so rubbish, and the definition (or lack there of) needs to be improved. Taking this behaviour one step further then - We begin to discuss the differences between makes and models, even though they may be of similar output and/or definition (i.e. deciding which Bareknuckle is best for your tone).

However, the way we bang on about it sometimes is as if the choice is going to be like choosing between a VOX combo and a Mesa triple rec. Whenever I do tone-tests between two different pickups of a similar nature, I have to listen quite carefully to notice the difference in a mix. That's not to say we shouldn't have a choice, of course, but I think I, personally, may worry about it a bit more than perhaps I should.

Just an observation

 

[HighGain510]

I once played a Jackson Soloist and an ESP Custom Shop Horizon through the same amp. They both sport a JB in the bridge, both had maple necks with ebony fret boards, but the Horizon had a fixed bridge and a mahogany body with maple top, and the Jackson (as everyone knows) had a alder body and Floyd. There was ZERO difference in the sound.

I highly doubt that was actually the case, unless you were playing through a Roland cube or similar and even then I can hear a difference in guitars. I have played guitars of the same scale, same pickups, same bridge and same strings but different wood and they definitely sound different to me. The wood definitely makes a difference.

I have a Jackson Soloist and an ESP/LTD H-207. Two very different guitars, wood-wise. Both have a JB in the bridge, and both sound the same.

Again, I highly doubt that. Two very different guitars and I would be willing to bet that if most people on here listened to them one after the other no one would say that they both sound the same.

 

[ilikes2shred]

I have been very interested in this as well.

I personally believe that it is overblown, but it still does make a difference. Unless my ear is that bad, and others can hear such a big difference...

Like anyone, I hear different tones and sustains from different instruments-- different timbres--but to say the things some people say about how bad or good a wood is, how they hate the sound of a wood, I would be lying.

Another way to look at it would be to try to think of how wood and other factors affect the tone of an acoustic instrument.

Think about the tonal difference between a cello and a violin. Overall they are pretty similar in terms of how they are made, put the timbre of the two instruments is very different. And why? I would imagine its because of the difference in scale length.

You could also look at the difference between acoustic guitars. It is much easier to tell the difference between acoustics made of different woods, as they vibrate differently, causing them to have a different tones. Shouldn't the same logic apply to electrics? Maybe not to the same extent.... but it should affect the tone some.

It would also make sense for woods to sound differently because of their different structures and densities, which should cause them to vibrate differently, producing the strongest overtones in different places... causing a wood to sound "bassy" or "muddy" or "twangy" and so on, or at least theoretically.

So the difference between woods is there... and depending on the structure of the rest of the guitar, the difference can be strengthened or weakened. Just like if you get very low gain from your amp, even with hot pickups, it won't sound the same as even low output pickups with a amp capable of very high gain.

So basically I think that every aspect of a guitar--the scale length, wood type, pickups, pots, bridge, construction, and so on--all affect the tone of the instrument. The final tone is a combination of everything... so if you have more bright factors in your guitar than bassy or muddy factors, you will have a brighter guitar.

No one factor completely dictates the final tone of a guitar... but everything contributes.

Like you say, there are many common associations with different woods because of how they are commonly used. So as long as people use the wood that same way, that's how it will continue to sound.

If you want a guitar that is custom or something, then you probably want to have multiple factors that will make your guitar sound the way you want.

So to answer your question, yes and no.

(sorry was that a politician answer?)

 

[I_infect]

That seems like a fair comparison, other than the different bridges... TOM, licensed Floyd, OFR. Then again, I didn't hear a diff between the Jackson Soloist and ESP Horizon, both with diff woods and bridges, but same PU's. Do you have the same exact strings on all of them? How do they differ in tone?

But generally, I'm thinking wood is not worth agonizing over because the differences are subtle at best. Far bigger factors affecting tone seem to be strings, pick, touch, scale length, and of course pickups.

All my guitars are pretty much setup the same way, and yes little things do have something to do with it... string gauges, even picks. and yes, the differences are very subtle. Does tonewood affect if I purchase a guitar or not? No... I can find a pickup combo to my liking if I don't like how it sounds. How it plays and feels has much more to do with it.
But, however subtle, the differences are there, none the less. playing 2 guitars one day you might not immediately hear the difference; play them everyday and you will notice it.

I have 2 m-107's, but I'm not sure what wood they are, so I don't think I've ever honestly compared basswood or mahogany to alder. I have no idea how similar they are in your case.

 

[gunshow86de]

There is definitely a difference. You can really hear it through a good tube amp. I have tested my ash body Framus, my mahogany RG2120 and my Basswood RG1527. When I played a Line6 Flextone, they pretty much sounded the same. But once I got my Mesa, the difference was very clear.

That said, I really hope this doesn't turn in to another basswood hating thread. It gets a bad rap because it's lightweight, soft and relatively inexpensive. All tonewoods have their own qualities, basswood is no different. I personally love basswood for lead playing. I suppose that's why the Jems, Universies, PGM's and Satriani's were made of basswood. However, when it comes to rythm playing, basswood does lack a certain "heft" that mahogany has. I actually found ash to be a very nice tone for both rythm and lead.

 

[Shinto]

What amp have you played both guitars through?

 

[led-ua]

I only would like to add my two cents concerning this discussion.
Yesterday my mates exchanged with their guitars - ESP M2 Std 2006 and ESp SV Std 2006. As you already know, these guitars are pretty similar: maple neck trough alder body, EMG 81x2, OFR. Differences are in body shapes, also SV has an ebony fretboard, while M2 - a rosewood one.
Guitars were played through Crate Bluewoodu amp and 4x12 cab loaded with V30. I also would like to mention I've played my friends' guitars plenty of hours and even mixed three demos where guitar tracks were recorded by those guitars.
So, it's really up to my opinion as a guitar player and sound engineer: tones of SV and M2 differ essentially. I agree, the general tone has few common features, BUT M2 has a brutal low-end punch and cuts through the mix like a bulldozer (I think mainly because of rosewood fretboard). M2's highs where just ok. On the other hand, ESP SV doesn't have such fucking sick low-end, but we were amazed by its shiny high-mids and highs (ebony fretboard). Two so same, but so different guitars for different styles of music. M2 now suites our tech brutal death style MUCH better than SV which now cuts in melodic death metal band
It is only my personal experience - I was amazed by how essentially fretboard wood can change tone of guitar. 2 hours lately I played ESP M2 2008 with maple fretboard - and it sounded neither like SV, nor like M2 with rosewood. But two M2 with bolt-on necks and maple fretboards sounded pretty much the same, even taking into consideration the fact, that one M2 was 10 years older than other
P.S. I made some Meshuggah patch for my TonePort->PODfarm VST and recorded those ESP SV Std and my Ibanez RG7421Xl through that patch. Their sound was very-very similar, the only difference was that 27" scale made notes of Ibanez more beefy and royal. So, the amplification also really matters.
Thanks!

 

[ZeroSignal]

The RG1527 comes with Ibanez pickups. Doesn't the RG8427 come with a Tonezone and an Air Norton? Which are both geared towards the low and mid-low range.


Isn't the AX7221 a short-scale guitar? There's your meat right there. Not sure about the S7320, but it does have different pickups than all the others, right? Wonder how they'd sound in one of the other guitars.

No, my RG8427F has a DS7 and a AN7. My RG1527 had that exact same DS7 in it and I have recordings to compare it to.

Yeah, I know that. I was just posting all my guitars in order of perceived meatyness. The S7320 has a tremolo system which increases treble response and the DA7 pickups both have a significant treble spike in them and the guitar is still has tonnes of lower mids to go around.

Also, explain why a S series guitar has such a thick sound despite being so thin? Surely by your logic it shouldn't be...

 

[I_infect]

I like basswood and ash for leads over mahogany as well, and I agree with you on ash as the best of both worlds.(responding to gunshow.)

Also, explain why a S series guitar has such a thick sound despite being so thin? Surely by your logic it shouldn't be...

agreed... they sound great.

 

[ilikes2shred]

There is definitely a difference. You can really hear it through a good tube amp. I have tested my ash body Framus, my mahogany RG2120 and my Basswood RG1527. When I played a Line6 Flextone, they pretty much sounded the same. But once I got my Mesa, the difference was very clear.

That said, I really hope this doesn't turn in to another basswood hating thread. It gets a bad rap because it's lightweight, soft and relatively inexpensive. All tonewoods have their own qualities, basswood is no different. I personally love basswood for lead playing. I suppose that's why the Jems, Universies, PGM's and Satriani's were made of basswood. However, when it comes to rythm playing, basswood does lack a certain "heft" that mahogany has. I actually found ash to be a very nice tone for both rythm and lead.

Ok, so is there some difference that you hear with certain woods that leads you to believe that it's the wood that causes that sound that you like, and not any number of other factors? (*that is NOT meant in any rudeness whatsoever... sorry if it sounds rude)

On another note, I hope to some day solve this mystery by controlling all other factors... if I feel like it.

I would also like to see the spectrogram for multiple guitars that people say sound different to see what they are hearing. Anyone?

 

[poopyalligator]

I have an ibanez rg520qs that is mahogany body, and a rg570 that is basswood. They both have the same stock pickups inside of them, and the difference is huge. I cant say i honestly like one of them more than the other. It is just different i suppose.

 

[Elysian]

it absolutely makes a difference. my ash bodied 6 stringer sounds worlds different from my alder body 7 stringer, the 6er is crunchier, punchier, and all around meaner sound, the 7 is more midcentric, and not as well defined, imo. they both sport maple necks with ebony boards, and string through body TOM's, though the 6 is only 25" scale, 7 is 25.5". they also both have X2N's.

 

[Anthony]

Wow. The wood completely makes a difference. Why does my Septor (maple neck, baritone scale, TOM bridge) with a mahogany body sound so much bassier than my Loomis (maple neck, baritone scale, TOM bridge) with an ash body, both unplugged and in an amp? They're similar thickness too.

 

[sevenstringj]

I really hope this doesn't turn in to another basswood hating thread.

Actually, this thread was kinda inspired by some basswood guitar recordings on here that sounded flippin badass. Made me rethink all the preconceived notions that are typically thrown its way.

Man, so many good points in this thread, it's hard to keep up with. About that Ibanez S guitar being meaty, I remember trying an Ibanez S Double Edge 7 some years ago and thought it sounded small compared to its RG counterpart. Punchy and in-your-face, but lacking lower end meat. (And no, I wasn't accidentally using the wrong output. )

There was a HAIR difference between the Soloist and Horizon I tried, the Horizon being ever so slightly stronger, and I mean by a hair. The TONE was the same. I attribute the slight difference in strength to the TOM vs OFR. I played them both through a Marshall half stack (though I forget which one).

So far, the factors that have changed tone most for me were string gauge, type of pick, and pickups. I'll have to make a recording A-B'ing my Soloist and H-207... before the BKP Nailbomb arrives.