Is "tone wood" overblown?

[Scali]

For example, has anyone ever done a FAIR comparison between basswood and alder? In other words, play 2 guitars that are EXACTLY the same except for the body wood?

I have an Ibanez RG570CT, which is identical to a regular RG570 (and now the RG1570 prestige) in every respect, except for the body wood, which is alder instead of basswood.
There's a clear difference, not only in the sound itself, but the alder also has a different feel to it. Basswood is much softer, and somehow you feel it when you're holding the guitar. Like it vibrates in a completely different way or something.

In general I'd say the alder has more sustain, and has a more lively sound to it because of its strong high-end response. Basswood sounds more 'hollow' or 'scooped' I think.
In my case, the alder is the reason why I bought this one, instead of a regular basswood RG. It had something in the tone that the other RGs didn't deliver (or various other superstrat guitars in that priceclass for that matter).

Edit: it's the guitar I used in the video I posted here a few days ago:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ge...tube-i-thought-it-was-time-for-a-new-jam.html
Hard to make a direct comparison because I don't have a video with a basswood RG... but nevertheless, I think you can hear a certain 'Strat-like' quality to the tone, that's uncommon for an RG. And that I think is the alder you hear.
The guitar is all stock, so you're just hearing the usual V7-S1-V8 pickups that are also used in the basswood models.

 

[caughtinamosh]

Oh, the irony... I recently made a thread with the intention of getting tonewood recommendations for my new custom 7 (epic NGD to follow )...

I think what you (OP) said had an element of truth in it - yes, alder's reputation has probably been formed more around the fact that it (more often than not) has single coils in it, and the same goes for mahogany and humbuckers - in short, I blame Stratocasters and Les Pauls. I also agree that the majority (though definitely not all) of the hate for basswood on this forum snowballed from member to member, rather than being based on experience. BUT, having said that, everything on a guitar has an effect on the sound, the construction, the neck attachment style, the pickups (especially) and many other factors, the body wood is bound to be one of the biggest contributing factors. Going back to my previous examples, mahogany IS probably darker in tone than alder, even though this has been grossly exaggerated through pickup choice and the like.

I firmly believe that you can get the right tone for any genre of music from any guitar, provided you have the right amp. Can you get djent out of a Gretsch? Probably, but it won't be easy, and it'll almost definitely sound inferior to an RG2228 or ESP SC. In short, though tonewood has become an overblown factor in guitar sound, it's still important, and that's why I'm asking around for my new custom.

 

[Arctodus]

Don't forget that the way the strings are oriented on the guitar makes factors in. The quality of the metal, as well the kind of metal of a tremolo or a bridge will make a huge difference, also the kind of nut the guitar has makes a difference.

The fretboard thing is is hogwash though. Being an ear player I pay attention to all the little nuances in playing. I've played many different kinds of necks with all kinds of wood it makes no difference at all what kind of board to wood ratio you have. What it all comes down to is the persons ability to exploit and adapt to the guitar. A signature or more expensive guitar isn't going to make you a better player.

 

[HeavyMetal4Ever]

ESP guitars are good for examples. They make the MII with identical features but either a maple or rosewood fretboard. I played both throught the same amp with the same settings and chose the maple board. There was an undeniable difference in the tone.

Same with the ESP Horizon FR and FRII. Identical features except one has an ash body and one has alder. Again, after a/b testing both through the same amp/same settings I heard a distinct difference.

I had two friends with me when I tried the MII's. One said the difference was amazing, the other said he thought they sounded the same.

I have guitars with basswood, alder and mahogany bodies, but I don't think one tonewood sounds "better" than another, just different. If you compliment the body wood with the right pickups just about any tonewood can sound good imho.

Rock on!

 

[70Seven]

I have two Ibanez RG (Basswood) and a Loomis (Ash) and there is a huge differance even when not plugged it, Ash really does sound bright, punchy and has great sustain. And that's un plugged so it takes out the EMG VS Dimarzio I have in my RG's

 

[budda]

What i dont think any of you mention is the fact that "part of your tone is your in your fingers" saying is quite true.

I dial in amps to get My Sound - when i tested out a dual rec halfstack, i had a PRS SE singlecut and the amp - and got a sound very much like my JSX w/o a boost, at a volume that is not bedroom-friendly. when your partially deaf aunt isnt wearing her hearing aid and says its too loud, you know it's at least somewhere on the dial . That said, a traynor YCS100H boosted w/ a stock TS9 using a gibson LP standard isn't a fair comparison between the 3 amps as the LP standard doesn't have the same pickups as a studio.

Also bear in mind that the way you play each guitar will change depending on the height you play it at, and what you play on that guitar. And pick attack/placement will have subtle changes on your tone.

there's a wack of factors, I just know that I personally get great results with mahogany. I'll own a better strat which will be alder, i had GREAT results with a Basswood doublecut with the help of being in a professional recording studio (DeathCharge on purevolume™), and going through my various clips on soundclick of my LP w/ JSX, its possible to get just about anywhere lol.

 

[eelblack2]

I dont think its overblown at all. I can hear differences within the same wood species on identical makes and models. All cuts of wood are slightly different.

Each of my UVs sounds completely different. Each of my Les Pauls sound different. Same with strats, teles, superstrats. Aside from just plain gearwhoreishness, its the reason why I have so many of each example.

It really depends on the sensitivity of your ear, how much balls-out-gain you are running, quality of your speaker cabinets, and effects/eq in your signal path.

The true test of tonal quality for me? Anybody can make humbucker+distorted channel sound remotely decent. How does it sound clean with no effects or gain at all? If a guitar sounds like shit clean, with nothing on it, you can dummy it up with chorus or delay all you want, but deep down you will know that it sounds like shit. THATS when you hear weaknesses in sustain, eq curve, and attack etc. Guitars that sound great clean, sound like MONSTERS distorted/overdriven.

 

[budda]

Guitars that sound great clean, sound like MONSTERS distorted/overdriven.

.

now, how many of you metalheads play clean?

This is one of the great things about a les paul haha

 

[Koshchei]

It's a difficult subject to broach, because of the huge number of variables that go into an electric guitar's sound.

 

[Seedawakener]

Guitars that sound great clean, sound like MONSTERS distorted/overdriven.

That makes so much sense! I for one do believe in different timbre according to wood. there is a reason why different instruments are made in the materials they are made too.

 

[Wi77iam]

Yes tone wood is overblown.
i have 2 basswood RG's haha

 

[Scali]

The true test of tonal quality for me? Anybody can make humbucker+distorted channel sound remotely decent. How does it sound clean with no effects or gain at all? If a guitar sounds like shit clean, with nothing on it, you can dummy it up with chorus or delay all you want, but deep down you will know that it sounds like shit. THATS when you hear weaknesses in sustain, eq curve, and attack etc. Guitars that sound great clean, sound like MONSTERS distorted/overdriven.

I fully agree. When I go shopping for guitars, I first play them unplugged, so I rule out the amp and electronics, and just hear the wood itself at work.
If it sounds like the guitar has a good natural resonance to it, with a loud enough tone, and a nice character, I'll plug the guitar in and see what else we got.

Most of my guitars have clean tones that I really like, and I've just tweaked my distorted sounds so that they work well with the character of the guitars. So yea, that's pretty much what you said.

 

[Emperoff]

Tonewood is overblown? No way

I've had a Hellraiser and a Loomis, which are exact same gutiars but with different woods, and let me tell you that they didn't sound any similar at all even both having EMGs. Unplugged, the difference was even bigger.

It's all about how much do you care about that, if the wood it's something so important to you when you choose a guitar. I didn't like how my baswood RG sounded and felt. As someone said earlier, it's not about the sound only, it's about the overall feel and response. I remember a friend of mine, who always played the guitars unplugged first when he tried a guitar in a music store.

For the record, ash is my favourite tonewood

 

[heffergm]

Overblown? Absolutely.
Irrelevant? No.

 

[Serratus]

The wood definitely has an effect on the tone, as do all the other factors you've mentioned. BUT it also depends on a load of other factors unrelated to the guitar itself:

-What you listen for in a sound
-the quality of the amp (a top quality amp allows much more of the guitars' character to come through)
-how much gain you're using (lower gain shows tone differences much more than high gain)
-what effects you're using (which is why I run straight into the front of my valve amp, to let all the tone carry through)
-the quality of all the other parts (both the guitar hardware and all the parts of the signal chain - pickups, wire, jacks, sockets, cables)

All these other things can drown out the differences in wood if you let them.

One other point, which has been mentioned before - each cut of wood is different - the mahogany in your particular guitar might not sound much different to your alder guitar, but that doesn't mean they're all like that. You may just happen to have a toppy sounding piece of mahogany or a thick sounding piece of alder.

 

[Koshchei]

Overblown? Absolutely.
Irrelevant? No.

I suspect that this is as close to the truth as anybody can get.

 

[sevenstringj]

I had two friends with me when I tried the MII's. One said the difference was amazing, the other said he thought they sounded the same.

is right!

But this brings up another idea I had about this issue. I remember watching an episode of John Stossel (I think that's his name) about bottled water. They fudged a special bottled water menu at a restaurant. The waiter would come over and explain the different waters, where they came from, and what distinctive qualities they were supposed to have. Then they'd all be served tap water... from a garden hose. The hilarious part was watching people taste these artsy fartsy waters and nodding in agreement at how wonderful and unique they were.

I'm wondering if a similar phenomenon happens with guitars. Since we expect mahogany to sound warmer than alder, or ebony to sound brighter than rosewood, etc., that's what we end up hearing. Furthermore, if your brain is expecting to hear a warmer sound, I don't think it's inconceivable that you'd subconsciously PLAY warmer.

Did the friend of yours who thought the two guitars sounded the same know anything about tone woods?

 

[I_infect]

is right!

But this brings up another idea I had about this issue. I remember watching an episode of John Stossel (I think that's his name) about bottled water. They fudged a special bottled water menu at a restaurant. The waiter would come over and explain the different waters, where they came from, and what distinctive qualities they were supposed to have. Then they'd all be served tap water... from a garden hose. The hilarious part was watching people taste these artsy fartsy waters and nodding in agreement at how wonderful and unique they were.

I'm wondering if a similar phenomenon happens with guitars. Since we expect mahogany to sound warmer than alder, or ebony to sound brighter than rosewood, etc., that's what we end up hearing. Furthermore, if your brain is expecting to hear a warmer sound, I don't think it's inconceivable that you'd subconsciously PLAY warmer.

Did the friend of yours who thought the two guitars sounded the same know anything about tone woods?

I heard differences in guitars when I had no idea about tonewoods. I'm sure that may be the case both ways; with Ibanez' purists justifying the maker's extensive use of basswood,saying..."I don't hear a difference! Ibanez rocks!" just because, it's Ibanez.

 

[bulletbass man]

I dont think its overblown at all. I can hear differences within the same wood species on identical makes and models. All cuts of wood are slightly different.

Each of my UVs sounds completely different. Each of my Les Pauls sound different. Same with strats, teles, superstrats. Aside from just plain gearwhoreishness, its the reason why I have so many of each example.

It really depends on the sensitivity of your ear, how much balls-out-gain you are running, quality of your speaker cabinets, and effects/eq in your signal path.

The true test of tonal quality for me? Anybody can make humbucker+distorted channel sound remotely decent. How does it sound clean with no effects or gain at all? If a guitar sounds like shit clean, with nothing on it, you can dummy it up with chorus or delay all you want, but deep down you will know that it sounds like shit. THATS when you hear weaknesses in sustain, eq curve, and attack etc. Guitars that sound great clean, sound like MONSTERS distorted/overdriven.

Exactly. Pick up a guitar and play it unplugged. Then the one right next to it. If one sounds weak and tinny and the other one songs strong and full. Guess which one sounds better when you do plug in (unless it has the world's shittiest pickups)

 

[caughtinamosh]

is right!

But this brings up another idea I had about this issue. I remember watching an episode of John Stossel (I think that's his name) about bottled water. They fudged a special bottled water menu at a restaurant. The waiter would come over and explain the different waters, where they came from, and what distinctive qualities they were supposed to have. Then they'd all be served tap water... from a garden hose. The hilarious part was watching people taste these artsy fartsy waters and nodding in agreement at how wonderful and unique they were.

I'm wondering if a similar phenomenon happens with guitars. Since we expect mahogany to sound warmer than alder, or ebony to sound brighter than rosewood, etc., that's what we end up hearing. Furthermore, if your brain is expecting to hear a warmer sound, I don't think it's inconceivable that you'd subconsciously PLAY warmer.

Did the friend of yours who thought the two guitars sounded the same know anything about tone woods?

This, in short, is nonsense. While there is a lot of corksniffery in this world, there are still those who can tell the difference between basswood and mahogany. Fuck, there's even those who can tell the difference between basswood and alder - Van Halen, when trying out prototypes for his new Wolfgang signature model, could tell immediately that it wasn't made from basswood and asked the luthier

"Did you use alder?"

I think the argument that tone wood doesn't matter at all is pretty much non existent. While there are many more factors that determine tone besides tonewood, there WILL be a difference between a mahogany guitar and an alder guitar, no matter how much their reputations have been tainted.