Liam Neeson wants to kill a black man

[GatherTheArsenal]

^ He didn't mean to say "nobody cares about those races" so much as making the point that people seem to get particularly up-in-arms about racism against black people, while being mostly willing to turn a blind eye to prejudices in other cases.

Fair enough, I did try to read that over and over to see which angle or context possum said that in before I replied.

Though i would argue that your clarification is a view where its validity is largely limited to within the U.S. due to the history of racism against African Americans and gun violence in recent years.

But outside of the U.S. in a global world where Liam's statement has a far reach to anyone with access to social media or a TV, that view doesn't exactly hold water in my opinion. Especially today and not in Canada or the UK at least.

Violence and discrimination against any minority is generally not tolerated regardless of which category they belong to.

 

[Demiurge]

It also doesn't help that situations nearly identical to the one Neeson describes (allegation with a black suspect, people wanting to enact street justice against anyone who might broadly meet that description) pretty much constitute the archetype of hate crimes in the United States in the the early-mid 20th century.

 

[TedEH]

There's an outside of the US?

I kid, but realistically, when it comes to social issues I don't think Americans (all North Americans, not just the US) spend much time thinking globally, rather than just the "world" within which they live. I'm guilty of it too. I'll admit I know little about what's going on in other parts of the world, but I often have at least a vague idea of what's going on in the US.

 

[Yul Brynner]

Yes my point was if he would've replaced black with any other race, it wouldn't be a headline. White on black racism seems to greatly overshadow other forms of racism in the US.

 

[Siggevaio]

Liam should be experienced enough to know that you just don't share things like this with the media

 

[Yul Brynner]

Idk he seems like an intelligent person. Maybe he wanted it to become a huge debate?

 

[Xaios]

I understand his anger, I don't agree with the motivation, but if he actually got the fucker that did that, killed him, and then that were the end of it? Good riddance.

And then what?

Here's the problem. Him avenging his friend that was raped doesn't suddenly and magically unrape said friend. Victims of a crime don't magically work through whatever issues that crime caused for them just because the perpetrator got their comeuppance. Plus, there's issues of proportionality and escalation, all things that don't tend to cross anyone's mind when they're embroiled in this situation until it's well past too late.

Given how little context we know about the whole situation, there could be any number of socially relevant causes for what happened. Perhaps the man in question was raised in an abusive household and developed into a psychopath as a survival mechanism. Perhaps he was mentally ill. Could he even be criminally liable if that's the case? Again, we've only been told the aftermath, and dispensing punishment only knowing the immediate situation without understanding the root causes creates more problems than it solves.

Even if the man committed this horrible crime in a clear state of mind, what happens after Neeson kills him? Assuming Neeson doesn't suffer legal consequences, someone else may decide to take their own vengeance on Neeson in exactly the same way. Worse still, if Neeson is incarcerated, they may decide to hurt or kill someone he's close to, and so the cycle goes on.

Ultimately, while these kinds of crimes always affect us on a deeply individual level, there is no sustainable method to dispense of justice on that same individual level. It really comes back to what Martin Luther King Jr said, "The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind." That is why the Justice system, deeply flawed and frustrating as it might be in its current iteration, is the only viable option for society as a whole, because at the end of the day, vigilantism solves nothing except sating immediate bloodlust, and tends to create more problems in the end. What we need to do is to work to improve the justice system as a whole. This means increasing and improving services for victims of crimes so that they can be given some semblance of normality again (something that revenge ultimately doesn't accomplish), and shifting focus from retribution to rehabilitation, and streamlining it to make it more responsive and less susceptible to being taken advantage of as a tool for the wealthy and the powerful. At the end of the day, this is the only way to create fewer criminals and to ensure the ones that do need to be incarcerated on a permanent basis aren't so numerous that they're a massive drain on society. One of the consequences of this is that whatever individual urges we have for revenge must be left unsatisfied.

Of course, I've never had cause to want to kill someone. If that day ever comes, I guess we'll find out if I can walk the walk.

Neeson deserves the criticism he's received for what he did in the first place. He also deserves some commendation as well though, not for ultimately not going through with it after coming to his senses, but for using the experience for self-reflection, identifying his faults and trying to learn from it. Even if a person commits a crime which has terrible consequences and no amount of adequate restitution can be made, that person trying to realize their mistakes and grow is still a good thing, and should not be discarded because they made a mistake, even a horrible one. We as people are way too fond of assuming that certain people are so beyond redemption that they shouldn't even be allowed to try and realize their mistakes and grow past them, because we're so fond of having someone to blame that we just can't handle the thought of a person changing to the point that they're no longer the same person on the inside. We want people who are monsters to stay monsters because it gives us a target to focus our righteous indignation, and we can't handle the notion of forgiveness (note: I'm not saying that forgiveness removes requirement for restitution under the law) if a person who committed a horrible act learns and grows into a different person, one that would never do such a thing.

 

[Exchanger]

We want people who are monsters to stay monsters because it gives us a target to focus our righteous indignation, and we can't handle the notion of forgiveness (note: I'm not saying that forgiveness removes requirement for restitution under the law) if a person who committed a horrible act learns and grows into a different person, one that would never do such a thing.

Another thing is that, admitting that monsters don't exist, that people are not inherently evil, but do terrible things because of their environment, their upbringing, circumstances, emotions (I want to stress out, explaining doesn't mean excusing)... that criminals are "normal" people who took a wrong turn, forces us to identify with them. And accept that because we're innocent today, we might one day not be, unless we constantly keep ourselves under control. And that's a scary thought. The idea of people being inherently good or bad is such a comfortable position...

 

[Yul Brynner]

Another thing is that, admitting that monsters don't exist, that people are not inherently evil, but do terrible things because of their environment, their upbringing, circumstances, emotions (I want to stress out, explaining doesn't mean excusing)... that criminals are "normal" people who took a wrong turn, forces us to identify with them. And accept that because we're innocent today, we might one day not be, unless we constantly keep ourselves under control. And that's a scary thought. The idea of people being inherently good or bad is such a comfortable position...

This is the biggest load of horseshit since religion and the biggest problem with learning from history. People really want to find any way they can to try and prove that people like Hitler and Stalin were abnormal or defective specimens. That Hitler was some kind of hypnotist that led a nation to commit atrocities against their will. People are desperate to think these criminals and monsters aren't just regular people like everyone else. People are animals. People have animal urges and instincts. When people don't control themselves they become monsters. Things like the Holocaust could happen right now anywhere in the world. People like the official story of the end of WW2 of us heroically nuking Japan into surrendering. They don't want to think that the Japanese had already been trying to surrender and we murdered two cities of civilians for no other reason than to scare the Russians.

 

[Yul Brynner]

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywoo...uez-liam-neeson-racist-chainsmokers-movie/amp

 

[wankerness]

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywoo...uez-liam-neeson-racist-chainsmokers-movie/amp

Cool. Ask some random idiot that has nothing to do with the situation (and really shouldn't be looked to for any serious social commentary anyway - reminds me of Dave Chapelle's old joke about Ja Rule being asked about 9-11) what they think about the situation and try to blow that up into clickbait and the same morons writing more thinkpieces about said idiot being an evil racist. Well, they got me to click on it, so mission accomplished.

 

[PunkBillCarson]

And then what?

Here's the problem. Him avenging his friend that was raped doesn't suddenly and magically unrape said friend. Victims of a crime don't magically work through whatever issues that crime caused for them just because the perpetrator got their comeuppance. Plus, there's issues of proportionality and escalation, all things that don't tend to cross anyone's mind when they're embroiled in this situation until it's well past too late.

Given how little context we know about the whole situation, there could be any number of socially relevant causes for what happened. Perhaps the man in question was raised in an abusive household and developed into a psychopath as a survival mechanism. Perhaps he was mentally ill. Could he even be criminally liable if that's the case? Again, we've only been told the aftermath, and dispensing punishment only knowing the immediate situation without understanding the root causes creates more problems than it solves.

Even if the man committed this horrible crime in a clear state of mind, what happens after Neeson kills him? Assuming Neeson doesn't suffer legal consequences, someone else may decide to take their own vengeance on Neeson in exactly the same way. Worse still, if Neeson is incarcerated, they may decide to hurt or kill someone he's close to, and so the cycle goes on.

Ultimately, while these kinds of crimes always affect us on a deeply individual level, there is no sustainable method to dispense of justice on that same individual level. It really comes back to what Martin Luther King Jr said, "The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind." That is why the Justice system, deeply flawed and frustrating as it might be in its current iteration, is the only viable option for society as a whole, because at the end of the day, vigilantism solves nothing except sating immediate bloodlust, and tends to create more problems in the end. What we need to do is to work to improve the justice system as a whole. This means increasing and improving services for victims of crimes so that they can be given some semblance of normality again (something that revenge ultimately doesn't accomplish), and shifting focus from retribution to rehabilitation, and streamlining it to make it more responsive and less susceptible to being taken advantage of as a tool for the wealthy and the powerful. At the end of the day, this is the only way to create fewer criminals and to ensure the ones that do need to be incarcerated on a permanent basis aren't so numerous that they're a massive drain on society. One of the consequences of this is that whatever individual urges we have for revenge must be left unsatisfied.

Of course, I've never had cause to want to kill someone. If that day ever comes, I guess we'll find out if I can walk the walk.

Neeson deserves the criticism he's received for what he did in the first place. He also deserves some commendation as well though, not for ultimately not going through with it after coming to his senses, but for using the experience for self-reflection, identifying his faults and trying to learn from it. Even if a person commits a crime which has terrible consequences and no amount of adequate restitution can be made, that person trying to realize their mistakes and grow is still a good thing, and should not be discarded because they made a mistake, even a horrible one. We as people are way too fond of assuming that certain people are so beyond redemption that they shouldn't even be allowed to try and realize their mistakes and grow past them, because we're so fond of having someone to blame that we just can't handle the thought of a person changing to the point that they're no longer the same person on the inside. We want people who are monsters to stay monsters because it gives us a target to focus our righteous indignation, and we can't handle the notion of forgiveness (note: I'm not saying that forgiveness removes requirement for restitution under the law) if a person who committed a horrible act learns and grows into a different person, one that would never do such a thing.

I don't care.

Just kidding. Sorry. It may not unrape someone, but that son of a bitch won't rape anyone else. And sure, it's only one rapist out of millions or so, but that's a few more people that won't be affected by that person and that's good enough for me. Sorry, but I've got a different view of justice than most everyone here and when justice fails, well... yeah. If that makes me a piece of shit or a monster to you, again, I'm comfortable with that.

 

[TedEH]

You cared enough to come back and comment on it. And to have our discussion yesterday.

 

[PunkBillCarson]

You cared enough to come back and comment on it. And to have our discussion yesterday.

You didn't read after that did you?

 

[TedEH]

That part didn't exist when I posted.

 

[PunkBillCarson]

That part didn't exist when I posted.

Do you have proof?

Again, I'm kidding. You're right, it didn't.

 

[TedEH]

I hope that you also posted that with only the first line and then edited it. If you did, I didn't refresh fast enough to see it.

 

[PunkBillCarson]

I hope that you also posted that with only the first line and then edited it. If you did, I didn't refresh fast enough to see it.

Exactly what happened. Just got up, at first just felt like being dismissive and then I figured it would serve better to let everyone here know that likely what they post regarding killing rapists/sexual assailants isn't going to change my mind. While I appreciate Xaios post, I'm afraid it's done little to sway me. Again, if you see me as a monster or not worthy of living myself, that's fine.

 

[TedEH]

Again, if you see me as a monster or not worthy of living myself, that's fine.

Chill man, I don't think anyone here thinks that.

 

[PunkBillCarson]

Chill man, I don't think anyone here thinks that.

I don't know man. I was getting some pretty nasty replies back when I was saying that I wasn't going to think of Tim Lambesis' crimes when I said I was going buy anything else that AILD put out.