Limits to low action

[Pat]

Hi there - I'm trying to get a lower action on one of my guitars (want 1.5mm low E, 1mm high E). Have adjusted truss rod, checked nut and saddles etc. Next step would be a fret levelling (or possible re-fret).

Before I do that I was wondering - are there limits to how low action can go on certain guitars, or if all are set up equally can one assume you can get low action on all guitars providing the right steps are taken? Don't want to pay for a fret levelling if it isn't going to achieve the low action I want, I'd rather just get used to the higher action (currently 2.5mm low E, 2mm high E).

Thanks

 

[nickgray]

are there limits to how low action can go on certain guitars

Depends on your expectations, playing style, and string gauge. You will get more and more buzz and choking when you lower the strings, but it's simply a question of how much is acceptable to you personally. Of course, there does exist a point where the string completely becomes dead, and then you start raising it from this point, it will choke/buzz heavily before it becomes at least remotely acceptable.

1mm-1.5mm is very achievable though. You'll get some buzz, a bit of choking, but it's still in the realm of acceptable. Less than that, and you'll start approaching that limit pretty fast.

or if all are set up equally can one assume you can get low action on all guitars providing the right steps are taken?

There's no magic behind guitars. It's down to simple geometry. There are only a handful of factors at play - the height of the bridge and the nut (of the slots themselves, plus the breaking angle of the strings), the geometry of the neck (truss rod, plus its straightness, i.e. no warping and such), the angle of the neck, and the evenness of the frets. I think that's it, hopefully I didn't miss anything. In other words, guitars aren't spaceships, they're pretty simple.

 

[diagrammatiks]

Neck angle is the big one
And nut height.

but neck angle will only effect your measurements past a certain point on the fretboard.


IMO though if your running 2+mm action and can’t go lower the guitar is just broken. A fret level will fix that.

 

[Lorcan Ward]

Ignoring limitations with hardware and cutting the nut you can set your action as low as it will go if you'd like, it depends how much fret buzz is ok for your playing. I've played famous player's guitars that were set up with less than .5mm across the board, chocking out on every note but works for them. For electric guitars some buzz is fine since it doesn't come through the amp.

 

[Pat]

Thanks all - problem I'm having is I'm comparing it to my Jackson which has 1-1.5mm action with no buzzing at all. Anything below 2-2.5mm on the LTD buzzes. Can't really hear it through the amp, but I don't always play plugged in so the buzzing annoys me. Will get a fret dress.

 

[Thrashman]

Like someone before me said, there's no magic to it - just geometrics and physics.

A tele with perfectly leveled frets can be setup with just as low an action as a shredder Ibanez, it's stuff like how hard you play and what gauge strings you use, what your neck relief is etc. that will impact the amount of buzz.

Good example: ever played a 7 or 8-string with a low B/F# that is a bit too floppy and buzzy, and it stopped when putting on a thicker string? that's because the thicker string is more tense and will oscillate/move less and as such is less likely to hit the adjacent frets, or in other words, buzz.

 

[Andromalia]

are there limits to how low action can go on certain guitars, or if all are set up equally can one assume you can get low action on all guitars providing the right steps are taken?

The latter. BUT, because, of course, there's a but, if the wood moves a lot and your hardware can't stay put, all your settings will have to be made again, and again, and again. While with a quality guitar, you're done for the month. One of my metrics for quality is how often I have to (re)do a setup.

 

[Celtic Frosted Flakes]

In my experience 1.5 mm on the low E (.48 Ernie Ball Regular Slinky strings) will give you fret buzz unless your picking style is soft. I had my Charvel (my only Floyd equipped guitar) set up with that string height and I had to adjust my playing style. I also usually palm mute a lot and I found this difficult, but maybe the Floyd had to do something with this.

 

[elkoki]

Slightly different opinion here.. But I think low action sorta kills tone. It's nice to have low action especially if you're a fast lead player but you can really hear the difference when you keep your strings a little higher. I wouldn't consider 1.5mm too low, 1mm on the other hand yes. Although i'm sure lots of famous musicians keep it that low but they also have great techs and their well made custom built guitars that are usually waaay better than any mass produced guitar.

 

[Rosal76]

Don't want to pay for a fret levelling if it isn't going to achieve the low action I want, I'd rather just get used to the higher action (currently 2.5mm low E, 2mm high E).

Have you tried a thinner gauge string set?

The reason I ask is because thinner strings need less room to vibrate when you pluck them. I use Ernie Ball Extra slinky sets (8-11-14-22-30-38) on all of my 6 string guitars and have achieved 1mm on some of them and don't have any fret buzz. One of the guitars, I believe it's my Ibanez RG1570, the strings are 1mm on the low E and even lower than 1mm on the high E. I also pick very light so that helps avoid fret buzz. But anyways, before getting a fret level job, a thinner gauge string set, depending on your tuning, may help you get lower action on your guitar.

 

[seekfreed]

A big factor that also needs to be considered is your touch. Depending on how hard you press down on the fret or hit the strings it affects the buzz.

Playing an instrument is a very personal thing. Once you find/learn about your own style you will notice that certain set ups affect your playing. Different styles of music call for different types of set ups or even guitars.
Heavy handed blues playing needs a different string height compared to neo classical shredding. Those are two different examples of touch and I bet that Yngwies Strat is set up in a different manner than SRVs.
I personally need a higher action for the notes to freely ring out without any buzzing (playing unplugged and hearing buzz gives me the creeps). Do you know what you like and dislike?

Check for uneven/high frets first and if you don't find any, play around with different sets of string gauges and action heights (remember to set the guitar up after every switch) before considering a fret level.
Even with cheap tools you could do a fairly good job by yourself if needed. I have done a couple of fret levelings on some Squiers and beginner guitars with cheap ebay/selfmade tools and was able to set the action really low afterwards. Don't do this if you are unsure or don't want to mess up a real nice instrument. If you can get some practice in on a cheapo, I'd say go for it.


Check your natural playing style and consider what kind of set up would make the most sense.

 

[Chris Bowsman]

Have you tried a thinner gauge string set?

The reason I ask is because thinner strings need less room to vibrate when you pluck them. I use Ernie Ball Extra slinky sets (8-11-14-22-30-38) on all of my 6 string guitars and have achieved 1mm on some of them and don't have any fret buzz. One of the guitars, I believe it's my Ibanez RG1570, the strings are 1mm on the low E and even lower than 1mm on the high E. I also pick very light so that helps avoid fret buzz. But anyways, before getting a fret level job, a thinner gauge string set, depending on your tuning, may help you get lower action on your guitar.

Interesting. I’ve found the opposite to be true, and have gotten lower, less buzzy action with heavier strings.

 

[Darkscience]

Thanks all - problem I'm having is I'm comparing it to my Jackson which has 1-1.5mm action with no buzzing at all. Anything below 2-2.5mm on the LTD buzzes. Can't really hear it through the amp, but I don't always play plugged in so the buzzing annoys me. Will get a fret dress.

Don't just go pay for a fret dress if you do not know what you are doing during setup. Without ever playing your guitar non of us can really help you because there are many variables at play here. You first need to get the best out of the guitar, take what the guitar gives you in essence, I bet you can get your action lower and have it be acceptable to you. If that is still not good enough MAYBE a fret dress will help just a tad more but I doubt it, LTD is a pretty solid guitar.

Have you checked the bow on the Jackson? I personally like almost dead straight but if you give it a little bow it helps get the action lower. You need a slotted ruler to check this, maybe there are other ways but that is what works for me.

Also the height of the strings at the nut really only helps with open strings. If you press the down on the first fret how is the nut affecting your action?

Also remember that the pickups will pull on your strings so you should check that too, lower them a tad and see how it works. Are they different than the ones in the Jackson? Also, thicker strings get pulled more so remember that, some people think thicker stringers can go lower, this is kind of true but its really just a preference for people who do not realize that they are hitting the string softer but still get a loud sound because the string is thicker.

Also check the intonation, use new strings too when setting up.

Just remember fret dress will make all the frets level with a perfectly straight neck, as soon as you introduce some bow, they will be off. Find your tallest fret, where is it? Is it on the lower or high end of the fretboard? Just think about it, like they said its all geometry. Keep practicing at this it is very valuable skill.

 

[bzhang9]

if you nut is cut as low as possible and all frets have equal amount of tolerable buzz you reached the limit, its that simple

 

[Pat]

Don't just go pay for a fret dress if you do not know what you are doing during setup. Without ever playing your guitar non of us can really help you because there are many variables at play here. You first need to get the best out of the guitar, take what the guitar gives you in essence, I bet you can get your action lower and have it be acceptable to you. If that is still not good enough MAYBE a fret dress will help just a tad more but I doubt it, LTD is a pretty solid guitar.

Have you checked the bow on the Jackson? I personally like almost dead straight but if you give it a little bow it helps get the action lower. You need a slotted ruler to check this, maybe there are other ways but that is what works for me.

Also the height of the strings at the nut really only helps with open strings. If you press the down on the first fret how is the nut affecting your action?

Also remember that the pickups will pull on your strings so you should check that too, lower them a tad and see how it works. Are they different than the ones in the Jackson? Also, thicker strings get pulled more so remember that, some people think thicker stringers can go lower, this is kind of true but its really just a preference for people who do not realize that they are hitting the string softer but still get a loud sound because the string is thicker.

Also check the intonation, use new strings too when setting up.

Just remember fret dress will make all the frets level with a perfectly straight neck, as soon as you introduce some bow, they will be off. Find your tallest fret, where is it? Is it on the lower or high end of the fretboard? Just think about it, like they said its all geometry. Keep practicing at this it is very valuable skill.

thanks - just to be clear, I've done all of the above and I do know what I'm doing with setup that's why the last option I'm willing to take is a fret dress.

I was more wondering whether if all things were equal would I be able to get similar action to the Jackson (or should I say, all things within my immediate control - e.g steps I can take at home without having to shell out more for fret dressing, neck shimming etc)

 

[diagrammatiks]

thanks - just to be clear, I've done all of the above and I do know what I'm doing with setup that's why the last option I'm willing to take is a fret dress.

I was more wondering whether if all things were equal would I be able to get similar action to the Jackson (or should I say, all things within my immediate control - e.g steps I can take at home without having to shell out more for fret dressing, neck shimming etc)

It really depends.

A good fret level from a qualified tech isn't going to hurt your guitar. I think that if you can only get 2.5mm the guitar has some structural issues.

Keep in mind that a lot of guitars are shipped out with like 2mm on the low e. While this will play fine it can really mask a number of issues that become apparent when you get the action to 1.5mm and lower.

All measurements at the 12th fret with almost a perfectly straight board.

 

[j3ps3]

Neck angle is the big one
And nut height.

but neck angle will only effect your measurements past a certain point on the fretboard.

I can't really see how neck angle would effect the action of your guitar. If it's so could you please explain why? Not trying to be an a-hole, I'm just interested as I can't really see the reasoning for that statement. Also saying that it effects the guitar after a certain point of the fretboard is just wrong. The angle goes along the whole length of the neck, not past a certain fret so I don't really understand this point either.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I do know what I'm doing with setup

But then this thread exists.

I'm sure you know the nuts and bolts of setting up a guitar, but how it all comes together seems to be a bit more elusive.

That's not an insult, you're already ahead of most.

The key to setups is measurements. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to measure various aspects of your Jackson and move that over to whatever guitar you want a similar setup on.

I can't really see how neck angle would effect the action of your guitar. If it's so could you please explain why? Not trying to be an a-hole, I'm just interested as I can't really see the reasoning for that statement. Also saying that it effects the guitar after a certain point of the fretboard is just wrong. The angle goes along the whole length of the neck, not past a certain fret so I don't really understand your reasoning.

Sort of.

Neck angle, fret level, nut height, bridge height, neck relief, radii, and fret drop off will all come to determine action across the fretboard. Different variables will affect different areas of the board.

 

[j3ps3]

Sort of.

Neck angle, fret level, nut height, bridge height, neck relief, and fret drop off will all come to determine action across the fretboard. Different variables will affect different areas of the board.

I get this, but having an angle on the neck doesn't mean you're stuck with a certain kind of action IMO. The string above the fretboard still goes as a straight line and the distance from the fretboard is the same compared to a guitar with no neck angle. What I'm trying to say, is that if everything is done well, there should be no problems regarding the action. The feel of the guitar is different as the bridge sits a little higher on the body but saying that it effects the action greatly is imo just wrong. It's not like "oh, you have an angle on your guitar neck. You're not ever gonna get the action as low as I have it on this guitar of mine that has no neck angle"

 

[diagrammatiks]

I get this, but having an angle on the neck doesn't mean you're stuck with a certain kind of action IMO. The string above the fretboard still goes as a straight line and the distance from the fretboard is the same compared to a guitar with no neck angle. What I'm trying to say, is that if everything is done well, there should be no problems regarding the action. The feel of the guitar is different as the bridge sits a little higher on the body but saying that it effects the action greatly is imo just wrong. It's not like "oh, you have an angle on your guitar neck. You're not ever gonna get the action as low as this guitar without the neck angle has"

it does in regards to the fall off from the 1st to the 24th fret.