Looking to potentially move away from Pro Tools... other DAWs?

[somniumaeternum]

Hey guys, I'm slowly (although more abruptly as of late) coming to the conclusion that ProTools just perhaps isn't the DAW most suited for me.

I have a couple of general complaints regarding this:

1. Hardware settings - I understand the need for details here but one semi hidden settings appears to make the difference between being able to record in time and never being satisfied. The buffer is key along with the plethora of other obscure settings in the options.
2. The midi editing - It is, in fact, starting to grow on me but I long for the days of using Reason and it's simple, user friendly way. Again, I understand the power behind it but why is my first thought always "ugh I have to open the MIDI editor again" whenever working on any programming? (For example, MIDI is a pleasure to work with in Reason / Record).
3. Plug ins - While RTAS works reasonably well most of the time, I always feel like I'm missing out on a lot of great VSTs that I could get (often times even for free).
4. Hardware restrictions - If my interface goes out, looks like I'll have to get another Pro Tools specific piece of hardware. Also, I can't mix or work on anything on a laptop since it requires the hardware to be present. (Yes, this has been changed for Pro Tools 9 but it is also quite expensive... I wonder if I could use the money more wisely).
5. Track number restrictions. I'm not sure why this should even be restricted but it is. Once you have a large project it'll end up being a hell of disabling tracks, bouncing submixes to tracks, etc. Again, I keep thinking why? I understand the hardware interface has a limited amount of processing power but that's also why I have a workstation. I should be able to judge by looking at my system resources what the app can or can't handle.
6. Hardware / drivers have always been a bit shady. I'm not sure why but it seems that all the versions I 've had have been a bit unreliable. And this is referring from version 6+ paired with budget interface all the way up to Digi 002 mixer style interfaces. It's a nightmare to imagine if I ever have to re-install my OS.

Because of all this I'm really thinking of potentially switching to a different interface / DAW. I know a lot of you guys have a vast amount of *practical* experience using different DAWs so let me call out to you.

I'm mostly looking for this feature set:

• Windows 7 support (x64 architecture)
• Wide range of hardware interface support (would like to have a hardware mixers supported natively, similar to the Digi 002 mixer that I have now. Some suggestions in this department would be appreciated as well)
• Driver / settings robustness - I want to be able to lay down tracks quickly and easily without worrying if my settings are for mixing / recording / mastering modes and so that I don't have to spend hours trying out every setting to see how it affects performance.
• Rewire support
• Elastic audio type functionality (basically, beat detections and timing fixes in audio tracks)
• Intuitive MIDI workflow / editing with ability to humanize and/or randomize velocity, sustain pedals, the works.
• Not very resource intensive (at least compared to ProTools)
• Built in sampler / instruments. Well, just need them to come in the box..
• Built in effects that are usable in a mixing environment (not just engineers exercises of saying "yes we have this" but plugins that you'd actually want to use)
• Ability to record multiple takes and comp to the final track from bits of all of them
• Features to aid composing (classical, piano, orchestra as well as typical metal band stuff)

I have been researching and I'm more or less looking into Sonar X1 Producer or Cubase (Sonar probably being the favorite at the moment). I've used both quite a few years ago and liked both.

I know I've written a lot.. and I already appreciate it if you've made it this far! I'm looking more for practical experience instead of just spec sheets so let me know what you like, what works, what doesn't, and if it meets the feature set criteria above.

 

[xmetalhead69]

I"ve been using Reaper, and I really like it. Its workflow is really simple to understand, sort of a combination of pro tools and Logic. It addresses most if not all of the issues you brought up. Its definitely worth checking out.

 

[Scar Symmetry]

I swear by Cubase. It's user friendly enough, but when you get to know your way around it you can get very impressive results with minimal effort.

 

[somniumaeternum]

I"ve been using Reaper, and I really like it. Its workflow is really simple to understand, sort of a combination of pro tools and Logic. It addresses most if not all of the issues you brought up. Its definitely worth checking out.

I've been focusing more on the ones I've used before (Sonar & Cubase) and thought the UI was a bit lacking for Live and Reaper. I'm not saying that I would choose not to use it because i don't like the UI, but I'll be spending many hours working on it so I'd like it to not be a visual attack.

I was reading that it is skinnable.. do you happen to know to what extent?

 

[Mordacain]

I"ve been using Reaper, and I really like it. Its workflow is really simple to understand, sort of a combination of pro tools and Logic. It addresses most if not all of the issues you brought up. Its definitely worth checking out.

I'm enjoying Reaper quite a bit. It also has the bonus of having a very affordable licensing price.

I tried using Cubase before and its very confusing for a DAW noob like myself.

The midi editor in Reaper seems to be pretty easy to use, but I think I might demo Reason and see if its easier for making / editing drum midis.

 

[somniumaeternum]

I swear by Cubase. It's user friendly enough, but when you get to know your way around it you can get very impressive results with minimal effort.

I hear cubase is a love or hate thing.. thanks for the opinion man! Can you give some details on what you like and if something from my list is or isn't available?

 

[Scar Symmetry]

Ticks most of if not all of the boxes, yeah.

 

[DVRP]

I suggest Reaper to everyone.

 

[Winspear]

Responses to some of your ProTools issues:

2) Opening the MIDI editor is standard practice for DAWs, from my experience (Logic, ProTools, Cubase, Sonar).

5) Yep. Being a Sonar user from day 1 and never having any restrictions on anything (plugins, tracks, etc) I agree.

There's a few things about ProTools I don't like, but the workflow is pretty much the same as all the DAWs I listed above.

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I have most experience with Sonar and would recommend it. The only thing I ever choose Protools for over Sonar is the elastic audio. It's great. I have no idea about that function in other DAWs but it doesn't really exist in Sonar.

Sonar ticks all your other requirements nicely though.

Unless constant use of elastic audio is part of your workflow, I think Sonar will suffice, and just keep ProTools installed for the occasional tempo edit and bring the audio back into Sonar.

I am a Producer 8.5 user. X1 looks nice but I haven't got to try it yet. The new interface change intimidates me a little, as it seemed to all past Sonar users, but they have gotten used to it and I guess I would too. For someone who hasn't used Sonar before I suppose it's great.

The plugins and everything offered with Sonar are great for mixing etc. I don't really use the instruments but there are some nice synths. For the drums etc I'm sure you would prefer a proper commercial plugin, but the same is true with any DAW and they don't intend to offer top notch solutions.

A few things in Sonar that I haven't found in Protools or Logic (maybe they have them), that I couldn't live without:
-Track folders!!!
-Comping ability. You can have multiple takes within tracks very easily. I know Logic offers something similar but not as user friendly. Sonar just records ontop of takes non destructively and makes 'mini tracks' within a track. Each line is has mute/solo, and you can fade and trim between the clips easily to comp.
-CLIP plugins and automation. Sometimes you just want to put an effect on one tiny part of a track or automate something on it. You can split the clip, and it will have it's own effects bin and automation lanes only on the clip. No more automation lines all the way across the track just for tiny little sections (and no need to duplicate tracks for things like this if that's what you prefer).

I don't have much experience in Cubase, but I know the VST instrument and output routing isn't what I am used to or like.

 

[somniumaeternum]

Thanks EtherealEntity... good info.

I was investigating reaper a bit more - I don't want to judge it too quickly. However, it looks really strange to me and doesn't feel like there's a common work flow in place. This sounds like it's probably by design but I think the polish that a unified idea / work flow would add may be a good thing to it. I'll still play around with it and learn a bit more so who knows, maybe my perception will change.

I'm still pointing mostly towards Sonar although the lack of "elastic audio" stuff is a bit crap. I've never actually used it in protools (I try to work on my playing first instead of on relying things to fix it) but it would be great to have in case I start recording / mixing for others. Also, I thought it'd be an interesting exercise to see if I can use beat detective to line up my guitar parts and quantize my Reason tracks to it to give it a more human feel - basically, quantize to de-quantize

I'll have to keep the search going. Please keep the replies coming, it's great to be pointed in the right direction here.

 

[Winspear]

Have a look into Sonars AudioSnap. That's the 'elastic audio' feature. It isn't quite as easy to use but it does do the job It maps transients and you can drag them side to side / quantize etc.

 

[Winspear]

Have a look into Sonars AudioSnap. That's the 'elastic audio' feature. It isn't quite as easy to use but it does do the job It maps transients and you can drag them side to side / quantize etc.

 

[Larcher]

reaper for sure.

 

[signalgrey]

newest Logic
edit: didnt see the windows thing. consider going mac and using logic though its fan fucking tastic. and every other program works like dream with it.

 

[brutalwizard]

i write all my midi in fl cause i have used it since fl 7

i record, mix and master in cubase.


i would HIGHLY recommend cubase 5 for recording and mixing

 

[KingAenarion]

I use Pro Tools 9, Cubase 5 (about to get 6 and am very excited for it), Logic 9, Digital Performer 7, Reaper, Sonar X1, Tracktion 3, FL Studio 9 and Presonus Studio One (and yes I paid for all of them)... Namely for my business so we can mix any type of project.

These are my observations.


Tracktion 3 is basically rubbish. It had promise but it hasn't been updated for a couple of years. But one of the members of my band uses it and It came with a Mackie Interface I bought a few years back. Avoid this DAW.

FL Studio 9 is only good for making Electronic music (and even then it's outdone by Reason and Logic quite easily)... but it's fun to muck around with once you know how to use it... but it has a reasonably steep learning curve to get it really sounding good and to master routing etc (at least that's how I found it.

Presonus Studio One This is the DAW newest to me... and I really like it. I find it similar to Reaper, but with better plugins and less niggly little issues. It's also incredibly easy to use and work out. My FAVOURITE feature is the Project Window. Where you basically have a program similar to Steinberg's Wavelab built in. You can make your whole album in the one program without having to export anything... and update the mix into the project and the master file... then fix the RedBook file without leaving the program. I'm yet to do a full project with it, but I look forward to trying

It is now my go to for opening up and putting down quick ideas.

Reaper Yea it's well made, and it's sure better than GarageBand and Audacity... but it has issues with some plugins like Waves Plugins (although the automatic 32-64bit VST converter is awesome). It can be a pain when projects get larger. But it's quite stable and it's CHEAP... I think it's better than previous versions of Sonar to be honest. Which brings me to my next DAW...

Sonar X1 First Sonar that I've liked. Quite possibly because it reminds me of Reaper and StudioOne It's stable, it's got some great instruments and FX built in (The Studio Channel is pretty nice, as are the pianos). It's also more streamlined than previous versions. It still has a ways to go though. It's still pretty clunky and a larger install than it needs to be.

Digital Performer 7 For you It's not an option because it's Mac Only... but it is very nice. Stable and the learning curve isn't too bad. Incredibly overpriced though (It costs almost as much as PT9 and Cb6... but is not on their level). It's got some pretty sweet plugins and pretty sweet features like the skins feature.

Logic 9 There is a reason this software is industry standard. It's pretty awesome. Very powerful and has awesome instruments and is great for making music a lot of the time... but can be an absolute pain in the ass... also not an option for you OP because it's Mac Only (bastards...)

Cubase 5 I only started using Cubase again 6 months ago. It along with Logic and Pro Tools are what I would describe as the "Professional" DAWs. It's got all the features you'd ever need. Cubase 6 has all the features I want as well (like track comping and others). It's very powerful, and while it has a steep learning curve, once you get your head around it there is a lot you can do with it.

You already use Pro Tools. Which version of Pro Tools do you have btw?

 

[USMarine75]

I'm just using plain ol Garageband, but it works great with Superior Drummer and Amplitube...

 

[shredguitar7]

reaper, nuff said. it does everything you need it to. its easy on my eyes. you can change anything, to any color you want. light on cpu power. recognizes any vst i throw at it. Midi editing is simple, takes me 2-3 minutes to write a bass line using Trilogy. or any synth stuff is easy to write as well. works awesome with my Lexicon i-onix interface. zero latency. best bang for the buck. 60 dollars. common..

ive never had any problems with waves plugins, and i have Complete 7.

 

[somniumaeternum]

Thanks guys... I guess I should check out Cubase a bit more. I always want to try reaper again. I didn't really like it the first time I opened it up but want to give it another try.

 

[KingAenarion]

reaper, nuff said. it does everything you need it to. its easy on my eyes. you can change anything, to any color you want. light on cpu power. recognizes any vst i throw at it. Midi editing is simple, takes me 2-3 minutes to write a bass line using Trilogy. or any synth stuff is easy to write as well. works awesome with my Lexicon i-onix interface. zero latency. best bang for the buck. 60 dollars. common..

ive never had any problems with waves plugins, and i have Complete 7.

ZERO latency? REALLY???