Low F# Tuning

[MF_Kitten]

The tension equation is T = U * (2 * L * F)squared.
For a particular pitch F on a particular scale L, T is proportional to U, the unit weight (the weight of 1 inch of string).
This means double the unit weight -> double the tension.

So essentially tension is proportional to the string mass. One way would be to use a hypothetical ultra-high density wrap wire, but if you are using standard steel wrap wire there's only so much mass you can squeeze into a particular gauge. Depending on the string construction (formula) the mass of a particular gauge does vary slightly, hence the slight variation in tension between different brands. Comparing the unit weight data of nickel roundwounds published by D'Addario and Circle K, the CKs are very roughly 5% more massive for the same gauge, for example the CK 130 has the mass of the D'Addario 135. So CKs are slightly tighter than D'Addario for the same gauge.

I hope this makes sense

thanks! i guess they feel looser because the sets are totally balanced through all the strings then.

Skip, do you use the same formulas for all scale lengths? i am assuming yes?

 

[knuckle_head]

. . . do you use the same formulas for all scale lengths?

Absolutely

 

[ixlramp]

i guess they feel looser because the sets are totally balanced through all the strings then.

This is where perceived tension comes in. In my last post i was referring to actual tension. As far as i understand, perceived tension is a combination of actual tension and stiffness (by stiffness i mean inherent stiffness of the string at zero tension). Stiffness can make a string feel tighter, flexibility can make a string feel looser. Circle Ks are designed to be super-flexible so i guess it's possible a CK 130 may end up feeling looser than a D'Addario 130 even though it's actual tension is higher.

Some strings are made with a thicker core, deliberately stiff, to retain a tight feel at low actual tension (DR DDT?). But IMO stiffness is a bad thing and not a price worth paying.

This is all 'as far as i understand it' AFAIUI!

 

[MF_Kitten]

Absolutely

cool

 

[bennerman]

so it'll work just fine with the ebony?

 

[buddylee05]

I am building a 40" scale length bass as well. I am in the process of putting my test bass together. I got some cheap wood from Home Depot and putting everything together to see if to works before building the real one. I am also interested in studying the effects of pickup placement on tone.

Bennerman,
Where are you finding the long pieces of ebony. The longest I am finding is 24" I would definitely like something 28-30".

Knucklehead,
How do you use a short 24" fender truss rod on the 39.55" scale length. If the fingerboard is 24 frets, which means 30", then the truss rod will not even make it to the first fret. Would the fingerboard be limited to 20 frets (27.4") to use the truss rod?

 

[Daken1134]

You should have done a search on here for this, my band pre records a backing track that utilizes a bass tuned an ocave below our guitars (strings tuned standard to F#) and i bought these, they work great,

Warwick Black Label Stainless Steel Dark Lord, .085 - .175, 40250

if you want to hear it here is a link

Iodine Sky - Band Profile | Facebook

 

[knuckle_head]

so it'll work just fine with the ebony?

Yes - it is going to expend and contract and if you have a glosss finish on it the glue line will show. Not a structural issue at all - just a cosmetic one. Remember to use urethane glue on the ebony.

Knucklehead,
How do you use a short 24" fender truss rod on the 39.55" scale length. If the fingerboard is 24 frets, which means 30", then the truss rod will not even make it to the first fret. Would the fingerboard be limited to 20 frets (27.4") to use the truss rod?

When I suggested to bennerman that he follow Fender's lead, I was encouraging him to make his own, proper length Fender-type truss rod. A guitar truss rod will not work in a neck this long, but the Fender design is simple and easy/cheap to copy. He didn't want to spend money on a custom made one, and he shouldn't have to.

You should have done a search on here for this, my band pre records a backing track that utilizes a bass tuned an ocave below our guitars (strings tuned standard to F#) and i bought Warwick Black Label Stainless Steel Dark Lords, they work great

They work, but only at 34" scale lengths - he wants to go longer.

 

[Durero]

I hope within the next 14 to 18 months to have a 55" scale instrument that will allow F# tuning utilizing a .130 string - I have no idea if/how well it will work, but my experience suggests there are some interesting things to be found in doing it.

Wow that sounds really interesting.

Are you having custom strings made for this and will you ever be able to offer strings longer than 40" for sale?

 

[knuckle_head]

Wow that sounds really interesting.

Are you having custom strings made for this and will you ever be able to offer strings longer than 40" for sale?

The first version of this will sport my 39.55" scale length - once I know the ergonomics of it the second will have the 55" scale. Hopefully by time the second bass is ready to show off there will be a Circle K machine capable of producing strings for it, and custom gauges will be facilitated. Custom gauges will be spendy - in the upright range for sets.

The new machine is more than a year off . . .

 

[Durero]

That's great to hear Skip

Are you still intending to use a shoulder-strap and 'conventional' playing position with the 55" scale or are you going thinking of an upright orientation like double bass?

 

[knuckle_head]

That's great to hear Skip

Are you still intending to use a shoulder-strap and 'conventional' playing position with the 55" scale or are you going thinking of an upright orientation like double bass?

Upright, bordering on stick orientation. It will have an end pin and a strap. You'll be able to get some horizontality out of the configuration.

 

[bennerman]

Play it with a bow

 

[ixlramp]

Talking of Stick orientation and 55" scales ... my interest in such strings is to create an ultra-long scale tapping instrument. Since the hands only need to reach the frets and not pluck near the bridge such a scale is not a problem, it also compensates for the loss of usable scale length due to using a string damper near the nut. The bridge would be waaayyy off to the right out of reach and the body weight off to the right would act as a counterbalance for excellent balance sitting or on a strap. I already consider a tapped WarrGuitar to have the most awesome tone of any bass-size instrument so i imagine an ultra-long tapper would sound amazing!

 

[bennerman]

yo, knuckle head, I believe I heard you say you actually made a 0.002 guage string or something? I am starting guitar soon, and was wondering if you plan to start making guitar strings soon?

 

[knuckle_head]

yo, knuckle head, I believe I heard you say you actually made a 0.002 guage string or something? I am starting guitar soon, and was wondering if you plan to start making guitar strings soon?

That would be Garry Goodman @ Octave 4 Plus - I'm not doing guitar strings yet, and won't open up with something that thin. I will see about what is involved with doing as thin as a .004 or so to be sure, and will see as well about half sizes under .009.

I want to have guitar strings available in the fall - working feverishly at it.

 

[bennerman]

That would be Garry Goodman @ Octave 4 Plus - I'm not doing guitar strings yet, and won't open up with something that thin. I will see about what is involved with doing as thin as a .004 or so to be sure, and will see as well about half sizes under .009.

I want to have guitar strings available in the fall - working feverishly at it.

Well, my school has a guitar class. I start it september, so I won't even know how to play one until late fall. I was hoping for a 7 string with EADGBEA. What size would you recommend for the A, or, for the sake of not having to bug you every time I want to know a good string, is there any way I can calculate it myself?

 

[ixlramp]

is there any way I can calculate it myself?

Explanation of what determines tension, equation for calculating tension for any type of string at any pitch on any scale, plus tension charts for guitar and bass:
http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf
There is some variation between brands but you can use this to approximate the tension of other brands of string to within roughly 5%.

You can use the 'unit weight' values published in the Circle K tension chart in the tension equation. Frequency values are here: Circle K Strings - Gauges and Tension

For top A4 on guitar see the 'A4 and beyond' thread in the ERG subforum.